Just to use the phrase 'Dylan's songbook' immediately evokes the towering precedent of Petrarch's Canzoniere and all the continuities between the traditions of song and poem. This was never going to be easy!
Jamie
> On 29 Oct 2016, at 14:42, Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
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> I'm talking too much on this list so I'll keep this one brief. That would be a yes to your question, Jeff, but I'd prefer for the moment to leave it a little more suspended than an outright comparison because there are so many elements in Dylan's songs that I appreciate, and some of those have a lot to do with poetry. If this looks like havering, it's because I want to formulate something a bit more interesting than a statement of my aesthetic preferences (riveting as that may be). Tomorrow when I have some time I'll do what I promised and take an example from Dylan's songbook and try to say a bit more about this.
> Just to add, I think I've understood Tim's points. If he hasn't quite understood mine, that's probably my fault as I've been trying to say several things at once and have been having to defend my already dodgy argument from misrepresentation. I don't think the issue maps out at all neatly along some kind of mainstream-avant divide. With conservative mainstreamers being haughty about popular culture and the avant-garde embracing it, or equally vice versa. I think the question touches on issues that equally concern whatever tendency and may even be a fragile bridge between them.
> Anyway I'm happy you see what I've been trying to get at with regard to the differences in song and poetry.
> Jamie
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey Side
> Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2016 1:38 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: The "problem" of prosody
>
> Tim, is Jamie saying that he thinks Dylan’s lyrics are mostly bad poetry compared to what he thinks is good poetry? I haven’t been able to make sense of (or follow much) the Lace/McKendrick discussion, so I genuinely don’t know if he thinks this or not. Do you think it, Jamie?
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> I agree with him on his general views about the differences in song and poetry, though. True, I did not hold that view originally, but now that he has given a fuller explanation of his position (and Peter’s), I have to say I agree with it. I realise that he and I will probably never agree on many other issues regarding poetry but on this issue I can’t find anything I can disagree with. That is not to say that at some future point, someone else might come along and persuade me otherwise.
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> I think, though, that generally I am more in agreement with you on poetry matters than I am with Jamie; and what you say about the proponents of the avant-garde on this list failing to defend Dylan is true. I have found this also to be the case in other contexts. I no longer find it easy to believe proponents of the avant-garde who say they like Dylan while showing none of his influence in their work—that goes for mainstream poets, too, like Simon Armitage.
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> On Sat, 29 Oct 2016 12:59 Tim Allen wrote:
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> I was out all day yesterday and I couldn't believe the number of posts I've just gone through on this.
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> Anyway, I've said what I think and tried to say why. It's interesting though, because I am not actually all that bothered by the original problem of the poem/song lyric thing. I think it's quite funny. For me its not a problem that Dylan was given the Nobel, it's completely understandable to me, but it's also completely understandable to me why some people, knowing their views on stuff, should disagree. It's funny because both these views point to bigger and wider problems about literature and value. I disagree quite intensely for example with Jamie's saying that Dylan's lyrics are mostly bad poetry when compared to what he considers good poetry, but again this points to much bigger issues with regard to poetry that lie outside the area of lyric and poem comparison that have formed the subject matter of most posts.
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> I find it slightly disappointing that on a list such as this it only appears to be only David, Jeff, Mark and myself who have come down on the Dylan side, the lack of comment from experimental (or whatever) poets who are engaged with cross-genre practice is noticeable - maybe it's a generation thing.
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> Cheers
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> Tim
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