I'm talking too much on this list so I'll keep this one brief. That would be
a yes to your question, Jeff, but I'd prefer for the moment to leave it a
little more suspended than an outright comparison because there are so many
elements in Dylan's songs that I appreciate, and some of those have a lot to
do with poetry. If this looks like havering, it's because I want to
formulate something a bit more interesting than a statement of my aesthetic
preferences (riveting as that may be). Tomorrow when I have some time I'll
do what I promised and take an example from Dylan's songbook and try to say
a bit more about this.
Just to add, I think I've understood Tim's points. If he hasn't quite
understood mine, that's probably my fault as I've been trying to say several
things at once and have been having to defend my already dodgy argument from
misrepresentation. I don't think the issue maps out at all neatly along
some kind of mainstream-avant divide. With conservative mainstreamers being
haughty about popular culture and the avant-garde embracing it, or equally
vice versa. I think the question touches on issues that equally concern
whatever tendency and may even be a fragile bridge between them.
Anyway I'm happy you see what I've been trying to get at with regard to
the differences in song and poetry.
Jamie
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeffrey Side
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2016 1:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The "problem" of prosody
Tim, is Jamie saying that he thinks Dylan’s lyrics are mostly bad poetry
compared to what he thinks is good poetry? I haven’t been able to make sense
of (or follow much) the Lace/McKendrick discussion, so I genuinely don’t
know if he thinks this or not. Do you think it, Jamie?
I agree with him on his general views about the differences in song and
poetry, though. True, I did not hold that view originally, but now that he
has given a fuller explanation of his position (and Peter’s), I have to say
I agree with it. I realise that he and I will probably never agree on many
other issues regarding poetry but on this issue I can’t find anything I can
disagree with. That is not to say that at some future point, someone else
might come along and persuade me otherwise.
I think, though, that generally I am more in agreement with you on poetry
matters than I am with Jamie; and what you say about the proponents of the
avant-garde on this list failing to defend Dylan is true. I have found this
also to be the case in other contexts. I no longer find it easy to believe
proponents of the avant-garde who say they like Dylan while showing none of
his influence in their work—that goes for mainstream poets, too, like Simon
Armitage.
On Sat, 29 Oct 2016 12:59 Tim Allen wrote:
I was out all day yesterday and I couldn't believe the number of posts I've
just gone through on this.
Anyway, I've said what I think and tried to say why. It's interesting
though, because I am not actually all that bothered by the original problem
of the poem/song lyric thing. I think it's quite funny. For me its not a
problem that Dylan was given the Nobel, it's completely understandable to
me, but it's also completely understandable to me why some people, knowing
their views on stuff, should disagree. It's funny because both these views
point to bigger and wider problems about literature and value. I disagree
quite intensely for example with Jamie's saying that Dylan's lyrics are
mostly bad poetry when compared to what he considers good poetry, but again
this points to much bigger issues with regard to poetry that lie outside the
area of lyric and poem comparison that have formed the subject matter of
most posts.
I find it slightly disappointing that on a list such as this it only appears
to be only David, Jeff, Mark and myself who have come down on the Dylan
side, the lack of comment from experimental (or whatever) poets who are
engaged with cross-genre practice is noticeable - maybe it's a generation
thing.
Cheers
Tim
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