On 2016-10-16 23:42, Kent Johnson wrote:
> All this talk about Dylan the plagiarist or Dylan the selfish and
> petty one...
>
> Sounds like Dylan and Shakespeare have some habits and demeanors in
> common.
>
> Assuming "Shakespeare" really_ was_ the virtually undocumented
> Stratford man who scrawled his name, in nearly all extant instances,
> as Shakspere.
>
>>>> Jeffrey Side <[log in to unmask]> 10/15/16 2:40 PM >>>
> Sean, it all depends on what view you have about art. If you see the
> artist’s sole reason to produce art as being “autobiographical”,
> then what you say about Dylan’s lack of autobiographical content in
> his songs is understandable. I don’t think he is necessarily
> motivated by autobiographical considerations.
>
> As to his personal attitude in how he prefers to be paid for his
> performances, I don’t think that should have any bearing on how
> audiences should respond to his work. If he prefers to be paid in
> cash, as you say (assuming you are correct), that, in my view, is not
> an important factor in evaluating the merits or demerits of his work.
>
> It might be to you, that such considerations are important because you
> view his reason for producing art as being autobiographical, and,
> therefore, any aspects of his private life that contradict the
> sentiments of his songs, to you, suggest that he is a hypocrite, or
> morally lacking in some sense. But, as I say, I don’t see him as
> having an autobiographical muse, so to speak.
>
> In my view, works of art should always exist independently of their
> creator. I have never considered the concept of an “authorial
> voice” as being of any significance to an appreciation of a work of
> art. When I read a poem, listen to a song, look at a painting; their
> creators are always far away from my awareness.
>
> I appreciate, though, that not everyone might view art in this way,
> and so fully respect your position regarding Dylan.
>
> On Sat, Sat, 15 Oct 2016 14:43, Sean Carey wrote:
>
> Confessionalism still goes on but not in a Berryman or Lowell context
> & looking back on that genre now it had virtues. Many poets of the
> younger generation are quite open on their lives & times & Andrea
> Brady i.e. does not hold back or Sutherland. They do it in a very post
> Prynne mode of poetics with Brady probably much more open than Keston.
> Contrast Brady's work on motherhood to Eavan Boland's "Night Feed" &
> despite the time lapse the total honesty is startling. Sutherland even
> in his SM orientated work does not reach this level of honesty.
> Clouding the poems with political discourse avoids the core issues he
> is exploring. This is very obvious when one sees him read on film or
> in person.
>
> At a major festival many moons ago Dylan insisted on being paid in
> hard cash which contrasted to many other iconic artists on the weekend
> bill with him. His letting down of Phil Ochs in his times of hardship
> can never be defended. Ochs merited far better in his time of
> homelessness which many have never experienced. Of course nobody with
> chemical problems is easy to handle but Phil was not a violent man.
> While his dodging of Dominic Behan who rightly confronted his lifting
> of "The Patriot Game" is a blemish on Dylan.
>
> Why Dylan or Springsteen cannot write about their real positions in
> society I do find irksome. Ok as Tim said fables & yarns make up a lot
> of their lyrical output but that is no excuse. Indeed both men could
> learn a lot from rap artists who shoot from the hip & don no masks.
> Often performing poets are simply playing the theatre card but few
> pull it out. Many are rooted in conservative poetic role models from
> eras now history. Many modern celebrity icons make no excuses for
> their wealth & fame & do full interviews. They account for their bank
> balances in a very honest manner & I welcome it.
>
> We all are very quick to assume all political figures should account
> for everything plus thinking every TD or MP is only in it for the
> money. In real terms a post political era started a fair few years ago
> when all politics became a brand. But can anyone explain Dylan's
> political views or his attitude to any current issue? Did he call
> himself Bob Dylan after Dylan Thomas or Matt Dillon? Does Bob pay
> taxes or contribute to any charity? Has Bob opened up his many
> mansions to migrants or housed any homeless person? Was the motor bike
> crash a real event or an escape from the burden of fame? What is Bob
> Dylan's attitude to women given his lyrical tirades against women he
> claimed to love?
>
> With a Lowell or Berryman there would have been no problem with these
> ?s or indeed Norman Mailer no fan of Bob Dylan. His quip on if Dylan
> is a writer Norm was a basketball player has shades of Antin on
> Lowell.
>
> Anyway there we go on Bob Dylan.
>
> Cheers
>
> sc
>
> On guys or gals who hung out in the Rat Pack era they never hid the
> fact they were making a fortune. They mixed with rogues as well as
> angels in Hollywood or Vegas. Dylan seems to avoid any "friends" since
> he retreated to New York State. His skill in avoiding the MSM &
> popular media is unique in my memory for such a major star.
>
> Turn that frown upside down
...they could've given it to (him) for his voice; (his) words don't
belong to him anyway, except in the not insubstantially gilt-edged
porosity of (his) intellectual property; or to someone who has a less
established generosity of voice; steal from the stealer; lawyers and
notaries delight -'like a circle around my skull'...
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