Some years ago I had exactly the same issue with true computing costs. When the real costs were told to PIs and included in grant calculations they said it made their bids too expensive when compared against other bids 'for the same work' where no such costs or inaccurate costs were included. Also, including the true costs almost always causes the bid budget to quickly exceed the maximum permitted by the funder, giving rise to different problems for the PI.
This issue of how research infrastructure is paid for on an ongoing basis really needs to be brought into the open with both funders and institutions, and a workable scheme agreed. It's a 'cost of doing business' these days, just like email, web presence and other ICT things. Yet researchers are not asked to include those costs in their bids. They are expected to be recovered from overheads.
I have a present infrastructure that was highly successful during its EC funded phase but now that the funding has finished, I cannot persuade 15 institutions individually that what we've put in place is sufficiently critical to their institutional missions that they will take on its sustained upkeep. 'Free at the point of use' (which is the researcher expectation) has consequences elsewhere.
Kind regards
--
Alex
Alex Hardisty Alex Hardisty
Director of Informatics Projects Cyfarwyddwr y Prosiect Gwybodeg
School of Computer Science and Informatics Yr Ysgol Cyfrifiadureg a Gwybodeg
Cardiff University, Queens Buildings Prifysgol Caerdydd, Adeiladau’r Frenhines
5, The Parade, Cardiff CF24 3AA 5, The Parade, Caerdydd CF24 3AA
United Kingdom Y Deyrnas Unedig
tel: +44 (0)29 2087 4861 ffôn : +44 (0)29 2087 4861
email: [log in to unmask] ebost: [log in to unmask]
skype: alex.hardisty skype: alex.hardisty
orcid id: orcid.org/0000-0002-0767-4310
-----Original Message-----
From: Research Data Management discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Rob Baxter
Sent: 15 June 2016 09:14
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fee structure for active data storage
Hi Chris,
First off, thanks for sharing your figures. There's a real reticence in academic IT circles in doing this so you deserve a commendation for openness! Secondly, I've collected figures recently for a costing exercise in the EUDAT2020 project which were offered in confidence so I can't share directly -- thus underlining my point -- but I can say £180/TB/y is entirely in line with those numbers. These were gathered from across a number of significant European research IT infrastructures, including the UK Research Data Facility we operate here in Edinburgh.
It's interesting that your academic colleagues feel the number's too high, and I wonder what their point of comparison is. Amazon's online calculator for S3 Ireland suggests £325/TB/y (assuming a 100 GB/m download profile), Alibaba Cloud OSS gives the same (although the two scale differently with traffic and volume). Backblaze work out at around £80, true, but commercially no-one can beat them.
I fear the easy comparison for PIs is with off-the-shelf storage from Curry's or Tesco, and for small data volumes the difference is naturally marked. This misses power, support etc., of course, and the fact that this approach doesn't scale beyond two or three users. Highlighting the actual cost of running large-scale data infrastructure is timely. We need more conversations like this, with as many people as possible sharing figures!
Thanks again for getting the ball rolling!
Cheers,
Rob
On 14/06/2016 14:57, Chris Browne wrote:
>
> Apologies for poor formatting. Properly formatted message below:
>
> Dear all,
>
> At Queen’s we are currently running two ‘tiers’ of research data
> storage. The first is a dedicated storage space for active research
> data, accessible on request by academics, and the second is a
> repository for published/ publishable data. We are working towards a
> third ‘archive’ tier.
>
> The public repository is freely accessible by all researchers, however
> we have identified specific charges for using the active storage space
> during projects for researchers to include in grant applications. We
> have clearly stated that these are subject to change. The proposed
> rates are £180 per TB per year and £1800 per TB P.O.S.F. The active
> storage space is procured through an external third party and we are
> aiming to grow the resource based on demand. We are particularly keen
> to establish a fee structure where there are significantly high
> volumes of storage space required (e.g. 10TB +).
>
> We have had some indication from academics that this rate is too high
> and potentially would not be acceptable to funders. I am not sure this
> is the case, but I am keen to gain an understanding of other’s
> experiences.
>
> We would greatly appreciate some guidance and support on the following
> points from those who have experience running an active data store:
>
> -Is the approach outlined above reasonable? (e.g. public repository
> covered as part of normal running costs, and active data storage
> claimed back through grant applications based on volume of space
> required)
>
> -Do you tend to offer a certain volume of space for free, or simply
> charge a flat per GB/TB rate for use of active data facilities?
>
> -Do you have experience of explicit funder responses to grant
> applications including costs for active data storage?
>
> -Do these costs seem particularly low/ high and, if possible, could
> you provide an indication of your pricing structure for use of active
> data facilities? (if you do not wish to publish these costs, I would
> happily receive these anonymously at [log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> and collate/ publish for wider
> consumption)
>
> Any advice whatsoever would be greatly appreciated. I recognise this
> may have been discussed on and off over the last few years, however we
> have struggled to find any examples of actual costs for active data
> stores.
>
> Best,
>
> Chris
>
> Chris Browne
>
> Research Policy Officer and Data Manager
>
> Research & Enterprise Directorate
>
> Queen’s University Belfast
>
> Phone: 028 90 97 2549
>
> E-Mail: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> *From:*Research Data Management discussion list
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Chris Browne
> *Sent:* 14 June 2016 14:55
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Fee structure for active data storage
>
> Dear all, At Queen’s we are currently running two ‘tiers’ of research
> data storage. The first is a dedicated storage space for active
> research data, accessible on request by academics, and the second is a
> repository for published/ publishable data. We are working towards a
> third ‘archive’ tier. The public repository is freely accessible by
> all researchers, however we have identified specific charges for using
> the active storage space during projects for researchers to include in
> grant applications. We have clearly stated that these are subject to
> change. The proposed rates are £180 per TB per year and £1800 per TB
> P.O.S.F. The active storage space is procured through an external
> third party and we are aiming to grow the resource based on demand. We
> are particularly keen to establish a fee structure where there are
> significantly high volumes of storage space required (e.g. 10TB +). We
> have had some indication from academics that this rate is too high and
> potentially would not be acceptable to funders. I am not sure this is
> the case, but I am keen to gain an understanding of other’s
> experiences. We would greatly appreciate some guidance and support on
> the following points from those who have experience running an active
> data store: - Is the approach outlined above reasonable? (e.g. public
> repository covered as part of normal running costs, and active data
> storage claimed back through grant applications based on volume of
> space required) - Do you tend to offer a certain volume of space for
> free, or simply charge a flat per GB/TB rate for use of active data
> facilities? - Do you have experience of explicit funder responses to
> grant applications including costs for active data storage? - Do these
> costs seem particularly low/ high and, if possible, could you provide
> an indication of your pricing structure for use of active data
> facilities? (if you do not wish to publish these costs, I would
> happily receive these anonymously at [log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> and collate/ publish for wider
> consumption) Any advice whatsoever would be greatly appreciated. I
> recognise this may have been discussed on and off over the last few
> years, however we have struggled to find any examples of actual costs
> for active data stores. Best, Chris Chris Browne Research Policy
> Officer and Data Manager Research & Enterprise Directorate Queen’s
> University Belfast Phone: 028 90 97 2549 E-Mail: [log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr Rob Baxter - Software Development Group Manager
EPCC - University of Edinburgh
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skype: robert.m.baxter
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The more I know, the less I understand."
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