Hi Justin
I wasn't suggesting that the doors would close or lock automatically. I was
suggesting that the two separate close and lock buttons be combined into
one close/lock button. Is there ever a scenario where you want to close the
door from the inside but not lock it?
If users are unfamiliar with these controls, there is a risk that they will
close, but not lock the door. If somebody from outside presses the 'open'
button while the user is using the toilet, this could lead to some
embarrassment. I'm just not getting why you need separate close and lock
buttons. Am I missing something?
Regards
Shane
Shane Hogan
Senior Standards Officer and Senior Policy Advisor
National Disability Authority
Email: [log in to unmask]
Web: http://www.nda.ie
Direct Line: 01-6080497
Key online resources from the National Disability Authority:
Accessibility toolkit:
http://nda.ie/Resources/Accessibility-toolkit/
Online disability training: http://elearning.nda.ie
Accessible buildings:
http://universaldesign.ie/Built-Environment/Building-for-Everyone/
From: "Ryan, Justin" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask],
Date: 08/01/2016 15:23
Subject: Re: accessible toilets on trains
Sent by: Accessibuilt list <[log in to unmask]>
Shane
Hi
I cant see the picture you gave the link to as I cant access twitter from
work, however although I generally agree that you would expect to lock the
door once you are in, if the door locked automatically after it closed this
could cause problems - eg someone enters the toilet whilst the door was
open, after someone has just come out, it then closes and locks behind them
when they don’t know where or what the controls are as they didn’t operate
them.
Also the possibility of someone entering the toilet, like a small child, or
maybe someone easily confused or anxious who may have operated the open
door button from the outside but cant from the inside - we have had
particularly parents pulling the emergency alarm because their child is
trapped in the toilet and cant find the unlock device and of course the
outside button is disabled whilst someone has locked the toilet from the
inside - so although it does happen now it would happen a lot more often if
it did it automatically.
However there has been much debate internally on this issue and whether it
should all be on one button, two, three or even a latch for locking - I
guess it will never be right for everyone but the intention is to make it
accessible without making it too easy for someone to be on the toilet with
the door unlocked - and yes that has also happened on many an occasion as
well!
Thanks
Justin Ryan
southeasternrailway.co.uk
07771 827121
-----Original Message-----
From: Accessibuilt list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Shane T. Hogan
Sent: 08 January 2016 14:18
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: accessible toilets on trains
I spotted this photo on Twitter this morning, showing what I suspect are
the door controls for an accessible toilet on a train.
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1Wo-AhM6KTvXugASUmB3OcMEpAPkRbSiXxUjf3VzKcD4mMs9uj3Z7j9RCnIrW3aqj1H_KN-kPW8hO0VxTFKAB7Lv3U_JpUGX_pG1upGvZZg5hdTkTjWKbr72byQydGpctg0S7W4ugUEVX8R_60w1wNze6z9Dy7xrKDoCzeqjhPCqNdtuogK8CHbH2XDdspLaQ/https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FCraigMcPheat%2Fstatus%2F544499262516891649
Regardless of the Braille issue, I often wonder why they separate buttons
for 'close' and 'lock'? Surely everyone who closes the door wants to lock
it straight away.
Best regards
Shane
Shane Hogan
Senior Standards Officer and Senior Policy Advisor National Disability
Authority
Email: [log in to unmask]
Web: http://www.nda.ie
Direct Line: 01-6080497
Key online resources from the National Disability Authority:
Accessibility toolkit:
http://nda.ie/Resources/Accessibility-toolkit/
Online disability training: http://elearning.nda.ie
Accessible buildings:
http://universaldesign.ie/Built-Environment/Building-for-Everyone/
From: "Ryan, Justin" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask],
Date: 08/01/2016 10:37
Subject: Re: accessible toilets on trains
Sent by: Accessibuilt list <[log in to unmask]>
It would have been great if Isambard kingdom Brunel had got his way with
his 7ft gauge!
Thanks
Justin Ryan
southeasternrailway.co.uk
07771 827121
From: Accessibuilt list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Ormerod Marcus
Sent: 08 January 2016 10:14
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: accessible toilets on trains
Interesting question and does this vary between different countries
depending on the track gauge?
Kind regards
Marcus
From: Accessibuilt list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Jane Simpson Access
Sent: 08 January 2016 09:58
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACCESSIBUILT] accessible toilets on trains
Ryan, agree, could this be a design competition? It would be great to see
students trying to design the most accessible WC within a train. For
information what is the width of a standard train carriage?
Regards Jane
Jane Simpson
RIBA & NRAC Consultant
T: 01484 423501
M: 07777 607239
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From: Accessibuilt list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Ryan, Justin
Sent: 08 January 2016 09:47
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: accessible toilets on trains
I think the issue is that you cant really compare a train toilet to one in
a building – its not only the space needed for the user of the toilet but
all the equipment they need to ensure is in the toilet for it to work.
I think the one they show in the plan is though being too economical with
the space and they could make it bigger – also I think looking at the
position of the sink, men would have an issue standing directly in front of
the toilet, meaning they will likely stand at an angle – even easier to
miss! I think you need some more elevations and the plan of the whole
carriage this toilet is sitting in to really be able to give advice on what
they propose- but at first look I would definitely say this toilet could be
bigger.
Thanks
Justin Ryan
southeasternrailway.co.uk
07771 827121
From: Accessibuilt list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Maria Zedda
Sent: 08 January 2016 09:02
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: accessible toilets on trains
Hi Justin
Thank you very much for the additional photos. What still is not clear to
me is how come there is no space for the wheelchair user to back into next
to the WC?
In the case of the built environment I thought that the distance between
the pan and the back wall was indicative of the space needed between the
back of the wheelchair next to it and the wall - in a side transfer? Why is
this not the case on trains, specifically in the drawing I supplied and -
judging by the photos - the Siemens class 700 too? If this space is not
necessary, why is it a requirement as Part M in building-based toilets?
Maria
From: Accessibuilt list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Ryan, Justin
Sent: 07 January 2016 19:58
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: accessible toilets on trains
Maria/Brian
Hi
I may well be that person!
See attached some further pictures of the same mock up ( which was at the
Excel centre a couple of years ago) which show a bit more. I think it was
only left and front transfer, with the left being in front of the door.
Looking at the plan you showed I don't think this is really meant as a
1500mm turning circle as the toilet itself would be in the way ( you can
'get away' with the sink being in this space as it wouldn't usually reach
to the floor, but you would expect the toilet to!) Obviously there are
space restrictions on trains that makes a standard idea of an accessible
toilet difficult as there is always going to be a need to get around a
toilet to move to the next carriage , this means that compromises do have
to be made. However the layout in what you sent does seem a bit small and
the reason might be because they want to be able to get a wheelchair past
the toilet? Just looks like there is the wheels of an example wheelchair in
the top left of the picture - this maybe why they appear to be making the
toilet so small - would need to see the rest of the plans to see , but if
that the case then you are going to end up with a small toilet!
Justin
From: Accessibuilt list <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Brian
Seaman <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 07 January 2016 17:52
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: accessible toilets on trains
Hi Maria,
Thank you :)
It’s hard to tell from this image, but my initial thought is that I haven’t
seen a corbelled WC pan on a train (yet) - and I think this is the same.
Ideally there would be a choice of left / right hand transfer, but I don’t
remember seeing that either :(
I’ve run your question past the chair of the NR BEAP to see if they have
some useful contacts for you. I will pass them on if they respond.
Best wishes,
Brian
Brian Seaman
Associate at Access New Business
T: 0845 124 9974 / 01293 776225
E: [log in to unmask]
W:
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Twitter: @BrianMSeaman
(Embedded image moved to file: pic28145.jpg)
On 7 Jan 2016, at 17:39, Maria Zedda <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
Hi Brian! Good to find you here!
Thank you for your message and photograph, I have a question for you
as I can’t really tell from the image, but as far as you know, do you
see any space for the wheelchair to back into, next to the WC in the
first photo?
Maria
From: Accessibuilt list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Brian Seaman
Sent: 07 January 2016 17:36
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: accessible toilets on trains
Hi Maria,
I’ve attached an image of the class 700 carriages being introduced by
GTR this year. These have been built by Siemens in Germany.
The image is a bit inconclusive from the angle taken, but I’m sure
someone at Siemens will have the dimensions?
Hope it helps a little?
Best wishes,
Brian
Brian Seaman
Associate at Access New Business
T: 0845 124 9974 / 01293 776225
E: [log in to unmask]
W:
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Twitter: @BrianMSeaman
<image001.jpg>
<image002.jpg>
On 7 Jan 2016, at 16:32, Maria Zedda <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Hi All,
I really hope you might be able to help me. My query relates to
the planning and design of trains so this might not be relevant
to your accessible built environment expertise.
I have been asked to give my opinion on the design of an
accessible toilet in a train carriage featuring a 1.5 diameter
circulating area where the front end of the wheelchair is used
as the centre of the circle. I hope you might be able to view
this photo below:
<image003.jpg>
I have my doubts because while this rotating space is required
by Part M of the building regulations for example at the end of
a narrow passage (i.e: a corridor) so that a wheelchair user
can rotate and go back in the opposite direction – I don’t
think it’s necessary in a toilet inside a train.
I feel that this rotating space has been taken too literally
and the design I’m looking at (based on page 12 of the European
Norms Standards based on the PRM_TSI Attached) features a
toilet that is completely round. This is a problem in my
opinion because there is no space for the wheelchair user to
slot into next to the WC as the walls are curved, the WC tank
is hidden behind the walls, meaning that the wheelchair handles
and wheels meet the curve in the wall and the wheelchair user
can’t reverse back enough to be properly parallel to the WC.
This means that the passenger would end up being unable to grip
the transfer handrails properly and only able to transfer onto
the very tip of the WC which increases the risk of a fall,
especially in a moving train carriage. It does not make any
sense to me.
If I had an example of how other train toilets have been
designed successfully avoiding this round walls feature, I
think I could prove my reasoning? Does anyone in the group have
access to a floor-plan (or a link illustrating this) of a
toilet that is PRM_TSI/RVAR/ compliant, yet not round? Do
wheelchair user members of the group feel that transferring
onto a toilet like this one is OK or is it problematic?
Many thanks in advance for any advice or information you might
be able to provide, I’d be very grateful.
Maria
Maria G Zedda| Trainer and consultant (Training & Access
Audits) Shaw Trust Accessibility Services
Email: [log in to unmask]
Tel: 0300 7900 521 (general office number) Mobile:
07534287343*
*Please note: for access reasons email or texting is preferred
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Shaw Trust, Ground Floor, East Suite, 1 Osborne Terrace,
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Is le haghaidh an duine nó an eintitis ar a bhfuil sí dírithe, agus le haghaidh an duine nó an eintitis sin amháin, a bheartaítear an fhaisnéis a tarchuireadh agus féadfaidh sé go bhfuil ábhar faoi rún agus/nó faoi phribhléid inti. Toirmisctear aon athbhreithniú, atarchur nó leathadh a dhéanamh ar an bhfaisnéis seo, aon úsáid eile a bhaint aisti nó aon ghníomh a dhéanamh ar a hiontaoibh, ag daoine nó ag eintitis seachas an faighteoir beartaithe. Má fuair tú é seo trí dhearmad, téigh i dteagmháil leis an seoltóir, le do thoil, agus scrios an t-ábhar as aon ríomhaire. Is é beartas na Roinne Dlí agus Cirt agus Comhionannais, na nOifígí agus na nGníomhaireachtaí a úsáideann seirbhísí TF na Roinne seoladh ábhair cholúil a dhícheadú.
Más rud é go measann tú gur ábhar colúil atá san ábhar atá sa teachtaireacht seo is ceart duit dul i dteagmháil leis an seoltóir láithreach agus le mailminder[ag]justice.ie chomh maith.
The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. It is the policy of the Department of Justice and Equality and the Agencies and Offices using its IT services to disallow the sending of offensive material.
Should you consider that the material contained in this message is offensive you should contact the sender immediately and also mailminder[at]justice.ie.
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Run by SURFACE for more information on research, teaching and consultancy:
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Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion list are located at http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
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