Hi Mike,
Can I ask why the digitisation workflow has no tools for metadata in it?
Was the workflow setup with reference to FADGI or metamorfose guidelines
for CH digitisation?
FADGI
http://www.digitizationguidelines.gov/
Metamorfoze
http://www.metamorfoze.nl/english
On time taken, we are aiming for auto embedding of metadata from the CMS
records, so actually it will be even simpler!
Regards
Tony
*Please note my new telephone number – 020 7211 2426*
[image: cid:image001.png@01CF86F9.22C2BC80]
*Tony Harris*
Digital Media & Photography Officer
Government Art Collection
tony.harris @culture.gov.uk <[log in to unmask]>* |* 020 7211 2426
[image: cid:image002.jpg@01CF86F9.22C2BC80]@govartcol [image:
cid:image003.jpg@01CF86F9.22C2BC80] /governmentartcollection |
www.gac.culture.gov.uk
On 17 June 2015 at 11:41, Mike Ellis <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Tony et al
>
> I totally agree too - I'm very excited about the potentials here, and
> _really_ like the idea that an image could potentially carry a whole bunch
> of metadata with it. That's very cool.
>
> <ignore>
>
> But!
>
> Just to re-iterate my specific position again (but also I think a Thing
> Worth Doing Generally), this particular digitisation workflow has _no_
> tools within it right now which will easily automate this embedding of data.
>
> Therefore if it done manually it'll take - I don't know - say 5 extra
> minutes per image to input this data in another tool. There are in this
> particular instance 12k records. That's 60,000 minutes, or 42 days of work.
> Personally I think it's worth asking the question "how does the institution
> justify this time?". That's £6.5k of someone's time if they're £150 a day,
> etc etc.
>
> If it is done automatically via a batch tool (thanks Tony, Bridge sounds
> cool!) which talks to the metadata record for each one and embeds this data
> then that's great (and thanks for the pointers, everyone - really useful!)
> but again, sorry to be boring, but this will also cost time and money -
> finding the tool, testing it, installing it, possibly paying for a license,
> etc etc.
>
> </ignore>
>
> So I think my original question: is it worth doing, and if so how do we
> justify this expense - is worth asking. And I think I've / we've got lots
> of answers, for which many many thanks!
>
> over and out
>
> Mike
>
>
> _____________________________
>
>
> *Mike Ellis *
>
> Thirty8 Digital: a small but perfectly formed digital agency:
> http://thirty8.co.uk <http://thirty8.co.uk/>
>
> * My book: http://heritageweb.co.uk <http://heritageweb.co.uk/> *
>
>
>
> Tony Harris wrote:
>
>> Well done Sarah, I heartily agree.
>>
>> Mike, on the bump in the workflow, do you mean us photographer's entering
>> the data or programmers ignoring it? Yes, it is a bump for us
>> photographers, but we always used to write on the back of a photo so
>> actually it isn't really.
>>
>> Again, not to keep blowing the Adobe Bridge trumpet, but the metadata
>> template feature makes generic metadata entry one click or automated if
>> you
>> prefer, leaving only unique descriptions as the 'bind'.
>>
>> Wow, watermarks, just when I thought it was safe to erase that
>> 'technology'
>> from my mind...
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> *Please note my new telephone number – 020 7211 2426*
>>
>>
>>
>> [image: cid:image001.png@01CF86F9.22C2BC80]
>>
>> *Tony Harris*
>> Digital Media& Photography Officer
>> Government Art Collection
>> tony.harris @culture.gov.uk<[log in to unmask]>* |* 020 7211
>> 2426
>> [image: cid:image002.jpg@01CF86F9.22C2BC80]@govartcol [image:
>> cid:image003.jpg@01CF86F9.22C2BC80] /governmentartcollection |
>> www.gac.culture.gov.uk
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16 June 2015 at 19:51, Sarah Saunders<[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all
>>>
>>> Is it not also time for image technology people and 'geeks' to work more
>>> together? In the photography world, IPTC and EXIF are essential tools,
>>> and
>>> have been for some time. Is it not possible that web technologists could
>>> gain something by surfacing some of this data (It's quite easy to do),
>>> and
>>> is it not time for a recognition of the importance of attribution and
>>> (relatively) sticky image labelling to be felt in the web community? We
>>> could do so much more together!
>>>
>>> Sarah
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9 Jun 2015, at 11:10, Mike Ellis wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, even I with my terrible geek cred was able to extract, read, write
>>>>
>>> EXIF data. So it can't be that hard... Flickr: my understanding is (tell
>>> me
>>> if I'm wrong) that this tends to be camera metadata, not descriptive?
>>>
>>>> But - in a scenario where writing this data would cause a considerable
>>>>
>>> bump in workflow, is there enough real-world usage to justify the time
>>> and
>>> expense doing it? That's really the practical question, I think.
>>>
>>>> Back to watermarks, I say :-) (I don't)
>>>>
>>>> tt
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _____________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Mike Ellis *
>>>>
>>>> Thirty8 Digital: a small but perfectly formed digital agency:
>>>>
>>> http://thirty8.co.uk<http://thirty8.co.uk/>
>>>
>>>> * My book: http://heritageweb.co.uk<http://heritageweb.co.uk/> *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mia wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure most geeks can figure out how to access EXIF data pretty
>>>>>
>>>> quickly... And isn't it used extensively on Flickr?
>>>
>>>> To ask a different question, can a museum worth its name justify
>>>>>
>>>> creating *more* orphan works?
>>>
>>>> Cheers, Mia
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my handheld computing device
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9 Jun 2015, at 10:55, Mike Ellis<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some more really interesting stuff, thanks everyone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even given the wave of positivenesses from the list, I'm still dubious
>>>>>>
>>>>> from any kind of practical perspective (Google doesn't use it, social
>>> - the
>>> only way stuff gets shared in any quantities, really - strips it out, and
>>> not one of the people I've asked outside our [very specialist] sector
>>> know
>>> what IPTC or EXIF data is or how to access it).
>>>
>>>> BUT the resounding response from the list is clearly "yes, use it" :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I totally accept that this might be useful for professional
>>>>>>
>>>>> researchers, and from a geek point of view I'm impressed by the
>>> possibilities. I also really like that these images can potentially carry
>>> all their data with them, meaning the orphaning of images from their
>>> metadata could potentially become a non-issue.
>>>
>>>> But - I'm looking at a scenario in which there is already a relatively
>>>>>>
>>>>> complex workflow, and the overhead of adding this stuff is potentially
>>> considerable, so I have to ask whether the greater good is being served
>>> by
>>> doing it. The impression I'm getting is - no, not really.
>>>
>>>> So I think what I'm taking away from this from a practical point of
>>>>>>
>>>>> view is really this: if it can be done without making your workflow
>>> much
>>> more cumbersome, you might as well do it. So that's useful, thanks.
>>>
>>>> <sorry>There's also a terrible irony - sorry to bang the drum again -
>>>>>>
>>>>> that we're all dead keen on IPTC and EXIF but are surfacing (object)
>>> images
>>> on pages which often have really, really terrible SEO.</sorry>
>>>
>>>> Anyway. Thanks all!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _____________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Mike Ellis *
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thirty8 Digital: a small but perfectly formed digital agency:
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://thirty8.co.uk<http://thirty8.co.uk/>
>>>
>>>> * My book: http://heritageweb.co.uk<http://heritageweb.co.uk/> *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Angela Murphy wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best article on this is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> http://www.controlledvocabulary.com/blog/embedded-metadata-wont-help-seo.html
>>>
>>>> Not updated recently but the text makes clear how it could help -
>>>>>>> and the many cases for embedded metadata not least the prospect for
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> it to be used increasingly in the future.
>>>
>>>> Angela
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9 Jun 2015, at 12:00, James Morley<[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've asked this question on the list before and the answer was a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> resounding
>>>
>>>> 'no' but I'll ask again as it seems pertinent, and things move
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> rapidly ...
>>>
>>>> Do any search engines, major or specialised, extract and use image
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> metadata
>>>
>>>> in indexing and rankings? It strikes me that there could be huge
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> benefits
>>>
>>>> to doing this in terms of search accuracy, certainly for object based
>>>>>>>> collections. Also, if they did it would encourage people to add
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> metadata
>>>
>>>> and also it would encourage sites not to strip it out. Until the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> spammers
>>>
>>>> got stuck in of course, so perhaps another argument for them to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> pursue
>>>
>>>> image analysis/recognition.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers, James
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>> James Morley
>>>>>>>> Work: labs.europeana.eu / [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>> Personal: www.jamesmorley.net / @jamesinealing
>>>>>>>> Also: www.whatsthatpicture.com / @PhotosOfThePast
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 8 June 2015 at 23:42, Reser, Gregory<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jeffery's Exif Viewer is very good. On Firefox you can add the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> plugin to
>>>
>>>> your button bar for one-click viewing.
>>>>>>>>> http://regex.info/exif.cgi
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Embedded MetaData Explorer has a nice UI
>>>>>>>>> http://embedmydata.com/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Greg Reser
>>>>>>>>> UC San Diego Library
>>>>>>>>> 9500 Gilman Drive, 0175K
>>>>>>>>> La Jolla, CA 92093-0175
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Phone: 858.246.0998
>>>>>>>>> Skype: gregreser
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of Ben
>>>
>>>> Rubinstein
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 2:29 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: IPTC / EXIF
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Mike,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The National Portrait Gallery embed half a dozen IPTC fields
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> concerned
>>>
>>>> with title, caption, 'instructions', copyright etc into all the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> images for
>>>
>>>> their online collection (but not images published through the CMS),
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> on top
>>>
>>>> of whatever data comes from the image production chain.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We implemented this six+ years ago, and I don't know whether
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> there's ever
>>>
>>>> been evidence about how useful it is. But (once there's an
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> automated
>>>
>>>> pipeline
>>>>>>>>> anyway) I don't think it adds much effort to the process, and I
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> think it
>>>
>>>> comes into the category of why wouldn't you do this? (Obviously, I
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>
>>>> speak for the NPG.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (On a related topic - there's an excellent extension for Firefox,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "FxIF",
>>>
>>>> which (in spite of the name) puts the IPTC data of any image a
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> right-click
>>>
>>>> away. On Chrome I've only been able to find extensions which read
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the EXIF
>>>
>>>> data, nothing that reports IPTC data - does anyone have a
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> recommendation?)
>>>
>>>> Ben
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 04/06/2015 10:33, Mike Ellis wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Does anyone bother embedding museumy IPTC / EXIF data into
>>>>>>>>>> (collections) images as part of their digitisation workflow?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If so, why? I'd suspect that a "so that people knew where the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> image came
>>>
>>>> from"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> reason may be one - but in reality do people actually _know_ about
>>>>>>>>>> this data in order to get back to the source organisation? Or are
>>>>>>>>>> tools like Google "upload an image" search or TinEye actually more
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> used?
>>>
>>>> Also - given that there is evidence that almost all social media
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> sites
>>>
>>>> strip out some or all of this data, is it still worthwhile?
>>>>>>>>>> (http://www.controlledvocabulary.com/socialmedia/)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> cheers!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ****************************************************************
>>>>>>>>> website: http://museumscomputergroup.org.uk/
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>>> Consultancy and Training in Image Archiving and DAM
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>>> +44(0)207607 1415
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