I'll take that as a place-holder, Doug.
On Monday, March 16, 2015, Douglas Barbour <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hmmmnnnn....
>
> Doug
> On Mar 16, 2015, at 3:22 PM, Halvard Johnson <[log in to unmask]
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>
> > As to what we work with, I've been working in my head on a list of things
> > that poetry does NOT require. So far, I've got this (a partial list, and,
> > anyone who'd like to add, please feel free to do so; if you'd like to
> > argue, just include me out):
> >
> > words, sentences, paragraphs, stanzas, meter, rhyme, images, metaphors .
> . .
> >
> > Hal
> >
> > "*Vraiment*,
> > Poetry can be so many more things
> > Than what people mostly believe it is."
> >
> > --Anselm Hollo
> >
> > Halvard Johnson
> > ================
> >
> > [log in to unmask] <javascript:;>
> >
> > <
> http://www.amazon.com/Remains-To-Be-Seen-Works/dp/1933132787/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367618323&sr=8-1&keywords=Halvard+Johnson
> >
> > Trapeze <http://issuu.com/swirlmag/docs/halvard_johnson> <--- Newest!
> > Junkyard Dog
> > <
> http://gradientbooks.blogspot.fi/2015/01/halvard-johnson-junkyard-dog.html
> >
> > <--- New!
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Douglas Barbour <[log in to unmask]
> <javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> 'convincing' is good, Max.
> >>
> >> As to the sincerity Andrew was talking about, I don't know; sure we
> write
> >> sometimes about what happened to us or others; narrative poems depend on
> >> that i guess.
> >>
> >> I always think of Northop Frye on Milton's 'Lycidas,' a poem that first
> >> appeared with many others in a book of elegies, but is really the only
> one
> >> still read (if only in grad seminars). Frye's point was that Milton
> was, of
> >> all who wrote, the leaf close to the man elegized, & that his
> 'sincerity'
> >> was very much in doubt, if demean by that how sincerely he felt about
> the
> >> loss; but how sincerely he felt about the poem he was writing? How
> >> 'sincerely' it;s unfolding rope etc strike readers? Ah, a different
> story.
> >>
> >> So, with Tim, I come back to the 'fact' that words are what we work
> with &
> >> it's in them, in how they go together that our writing comes.
> >>
> >> I also recall, & still agree, with Robert Creeley's statement, to the
> >> effect, that he writes what is given to him, not to some predetermined
> >> concept ...
> >>
> >> Doug
> >> On Mar 16, 2015, at 11:42 AM, Halvard Johnson <[log in to unmask]
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>
> >>> As in Hollywood, sincerity in poetry is easily faked.
> >>>
> >>> "*Vraiment*,
> >>> Poetry can be so many more things
> >>> Than what people mostly believe it is."
> >>>
> >>> --Anselm Hollo
> >>>
> >>> Halvard Johnson
> >>> ================
> >>>
> >>> [log in to unmask] <javascript:;>
> >>>
> >>> <
> >>
> http://www.amazon.com/Remains-To-Be-Seen-Works/dp/1933132787/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367618323&sr=8-1&keywords=Halvard+Johnson
> >>>
> >>> Trapeze <http://issuu.com/swirlmag/docs/halvard_johnson> <---
> Newest!
> >>> Junkyard Dog
> >>> <
> >>
> http://gradientbooks.blogspot.fi/2015/01/halvard-johnson-junkyard-dog.html
> >>>
> >>> <--- New!
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 9:51 AM, Tim Allen <
> >>> [log in to unmask] <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Can't let this pass. 'Slippery fish' sincerity certainly is,
> especially
> >>>> when used in the same sentence with 'true facts'.
> >>>>
> >>>> I wanted to come in on this when Bill said that thing about a word
> must
> >>>> never precede an idea, something which is not just problematic but
> >> probably
> >>>> impossible- but I never because it gets into that tricky realm of
> >> whether
> >>>> ideas are always made of words and if not what? pictures, feelings
> etc -
> >>>> but then when pictures or feelings get transferred into ideas don't
> >> words
> >>>> get involved? - don't go there, it's a swamp. So I didn't. I know that
> >> if I
> >>>> sat around waiting for an 'idea' before writing a poem I might have
> >> written
> >>>> about 20 poems in my life instead of 2000 etc - mind you, they might
> be
> >> 20
> >>>> very long poems.
> >>>>
> >>>> Seriously though, sincerity is a real sod to talk about in relation to
> >>>> poetry. The multiplicity of voices and tricks of utterance that are
> >>>> involved in poetry (never mind the variety of functions that poetry
> can
> >>>> perform) make the normal meaning of sincerity meaningless, and that
> >>>> includes the kind of sincerity that Andrew seems to be referring to.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sincerity in poetry is something else, something that has nothing to
> do
> >>>> with 'true facts', whatever they are.
> >>>>
> >>>> Cheers
> >>>>
> >>>> Tim A.
> >>>>
> >>>> On 16 Mar 2015, at 05:06, Andrew Burke wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Oh what a slippery fish sincerity is when speaking of creativity. For
> >> my
> >>>>> practice, the 'true facts' are my basic sincerity, as I see them or
> >>>>> remember them, written in plain language
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Douglas Barbour
> >> [log in to unmask] <javascript:;>
> >>
> >> Recent publications: (With Sheila E Murphy) Continuations &
> Continuation 2
> >> (UofAPress).
> >> Recording Dates (Rubicon Press).
> >>
> >> There is no life that does not rise
> >> melodic from scales of the marvelous.
> >>
> >> To which our grief refers.
> >>
> >> Robert Duncan.
> >>
> >
>
> Douglas Barbour
> [log in to unmask] <javascript:;>
>
> Recent publications: (With Sheila E Murphy) Continuations & Continuation 2
> (UofAPress).
> Recording Dates (Rubicon Press).
>
> There is no life that does not rise
> melodic from scales of the marvelous.
>
> To which our grief refers.
>
> Robert Duncan.
>
--
:: from the desk of Halvard Johnson ::
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