I'm afraid I hadn't heard of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis, and checking on 
the net I see it's going to take me quite some time to figure out its 
implications. Still, academic or not, questions about the way language work 
have to be deemed appropriate for a poetry list. Maybe your timing, Robin, 
was a shade off in this instance!
    Briefly to explain why I disapprove of 'whorish politicians' and phrases 
of that kind: mine's a very straightforward objection, even though I know 
that language is a dangerous thing to be straightforward about . It's not 
just that 'whore' is (mainly now) a contemptuous term for a prostitute, but 
that any such phrase, for its meaning and impact, depends on a contempt for 
prostitutes, even if it's a metaphor, and even if it's directed mainly at 
men. I don't understand the basis for that contempt - well I understand it 
but dislike it. (Why wouldn't a reversed phrase like "a politician-like 
prostitute" make sense, quite apart from the fact it doesn't roll off the 
tongue? Probably an irrelevant question.)
   Would that view outlaw any phrases about other jobs? Not always, but 
sometimes - 'shyster' to my ear sounds anti-Semitic but I know there may be 
reasons to doubt this. There are certainly many racial slurs that have 
lodged in the language, as metaphor or simile, that I hope all of us would 
consider unacceptable. Whenever we hear 'whore' and cognates I think there 
is an implied prejudice against women that may not be meant but is 
inextricable, though I'm ignorant of southern Irish usage, and Giles's 
subsequent linguistic point may also have weight.
   To complicate this matter, by taking an example from a bit further away, 
a phrase like 'hijo de puta' in Spanish is so current that it would be 
futile and ludicrous to try to suppress it. Literally, as is obvious, it 
corresponds to antiquated 'whoreson' though it would be rendered in 
contemporary English/ American as 'son of a bitch'. 'Puta' isn't quite as 
disrespectful as 'whore', I'd argue, but it's just a conventional insult in 
Spanish. I guess as with the present disputed phrase, there might be an 
argument even on a Hispanic list of this kind (I'm trying to imagine that) 
to keep insults out of bounds.

   Hardly adds much, but I feel exhausted and disheartened by this long 
argument, even though I've not really been on the receiving end of it, and I 
worry that I could have done more to avert it. With a bit of care all round 
it might have turned out very differently and better for everyone.
   Though I don't feel Robin has anything to reproach himself for, he's 
right to mention Alice's 'real distress over the matter' as something that 
might have been handled with more tact and understanding - not least because 
the list ought to be more inclusive, and more willing to consider whether 
its customary manners are off-putting to contributions from women, and 
generally to those who (myself included) can find a frequent enough habit of 
abuse oppressive. Though of course that characterises only a fraction of the 
exchanges here, those seem to me enough to justify my repeated call to 
respect the ad hominem list rule, a call which has once again been ignored. 
It wouldn't stop argument, and I wouldn't want it too, but it might help 
lessen the unnecessary hurt caused. Having decided last December to leave 
the list, after what I considered deeply unjust abuse, I wrote a letter of 
'resignation' which I never sent, as I'm averse to walking out of things in 
a fit of pique. I'm glad now not to have sent it because it was written in 
the drabbest bureaucratic prose, but for what it's worth the letter ended 
with a similar plea, which strikes me as having been recently justified, 
though you don't have to be a profit to state the obvious:

"Without this care taken, if the list doesn’t decline into a terminal 
somnolence, having silenced any voices that might sound oppositional, I 
believe that these abuses will inevitably recur with damaging consequences, 
as frequently enough they have in the past. But in that case, someone else 
will have to be the scapegoat. "

Jamie

-----Original Message----- 
From: Robin Hamilton
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2014 12:03 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: status of the list

Oh, well, it did kick up some interesting issues along the way.  I thought
Alice herself behaved remarkably well, unlike some others, myself included.

I'm thinking there, with regard to myself, of Alison's post quoting
Wiktionary.  I read it as a wilful truncation of the entry, but in
retrospect, it could I suppose be taken as highlighting the etymological
source of the phrase.  The etymological fallacy is something that makes me
cringe -- Delapidated means bits falling off walls since that's what it
meant in Latin, to take the commonest example-- so my anti-prescriptivist
instincts promptly kicked in.

I also found myself waking up in the middle of the night, thinking, "Ah,
*that's* why I'm reluctant to entirely go along with Jamie's disapproval of
whorish politicians -- it's the Strong Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis, ain't it?"

Which was silly because (and not that I'm suggesting that Jamie is an
adherent of strong S-W) that particular point turned on the allowability of
certain kinds of metaphor, and I'm myself unhappy with Sylvia Plath's
metaphorical linking of herself to the plight of wartime Jews, in "Daddy",
whereas the strong Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis intersects with the the discussion
of gendering in language on the level of prepositional usage, which is a
different, if not unimportant, issue, and not one that had come up in the
course of the discussion.

All of which might (or might not) be perfectly fair on my part, if a trifle
misdirectly academic, but perhaps less than entirely appropriate in the
context of Alice's real distress over the matter.

Anybody interested in hearing about a thing I mentioned in passing, the
suppression of Dublin cant speech of the 1780s? -- its continuing
suppression, that is, not what happened at the time.  Or that as well.  The
poetic connection is mostly to The Poem Formerly Known As The Night Before
Larry Was Stretched.

I don't want to bore the list if it's felt to be off-topic.

Robn

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----Original Message----- 
From: Peter Riley
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2014 10:17 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: status of the list

Sorry, when I said this I didn't mean you lot now, I meant that
frightful episode we've just been through. I never want to have to
read that kind of stuff ever again. I thought "you lot" bore
yourselves with dignity under the circumstances.

Good review of Kai Miller by Carrie Etter in today's Guardian.

P


On 10 Oct 2014, at 18:05, Peter Riley wrote:

I'm beginning to wish I hadn't.
P

On 10 Oct 2014, at 17:40, Tilla Brading wrote:

I think it was Peter Riley….???
Tilla

Tilla Brading
[log in to unmask]



On 10 Oct 2014, at 06:31, jim andrews <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

I forget now who asked the question at the outset about the status of
the list.

Has the question been answered to your satisfaction?

ja
http://vispo.com