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-----Original Message-----
From: ACCESSIBUILT automatic digest system <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Accessibuilt list <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 00:00:53
To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Subject: ACCESSIBUILT Digest - 23 Oct 2014 to 24 Oct 2014 (#2014-102)
There are 6 messages totaling 8551 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. My first enquiry - re accessible car parking (5)
2. High Street, Cardiff - shared space
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 07:06:00 +0000
From: Mike Elkerton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: My first enquiry - re accessible car parking
Hi Jon
Maybe at some time you might consider joining us at 'The Access Association' in the North West?
You must know Lorraine Ward, from Manchester City Council, she is the Secretary of the Association in the North West region.
Send me an email if you would like to talk further
Regards
Mike
Mike Elkerton NRAC (Auditor)Member of the National Register of Access ConsultantsChair of the NW Regional Access Association
On Thursday, 23 October 2014, 21:02, Vin <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Hi Jon,
not good news I’m afraid - from what I know this would be a private car park [whether the shopping centre owns it or not, although if the shopping centre were owned by the local authority that would open up the Public Sector Equality Duties as a means of support] and in private areas the car parking has no legal status. Which leaves only persuading whoever owns the car park to behave like human beings and enforce the usual rules of Blue Badge Parking or, failing that, using the press to embarrass them into doing so. The fact is I’m afraid that Blue Badge parking spaces have no legal status in private car parks - just one of the bizarre anomalies of a legal system that basically screws disable people while pretending to protect them! :-)
very best of luck with whatever approach you take!
Regards,
Vin
Vin West
Chair
Arfon Access Group
01286880761
07771536760
Glyn Dwr
Llandwrog Uchaf
Caernarfon
LL54 7RA
[log in to unmask]
> On 23 Oct 2014, at 12:00, Jon Burke <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I have just joined the list so although I already recognise a few names of people posting, I will start by introducing myself. I have been Access Project Manager of Manchester Disabled People's Access Group (MDPAG) for just over a year. As the title suggests I do manage our access work but I also really co-ordinate all our day to day activities. This includes a range of access consultancy services, training local disabled people to become NRAC accredited access auditors, involving our members in various access related consultations and generally campaigning for improved access in Manchester and the surrounding area. I came to the organisation with what I called at the time a fair amount of 'informal access' experience and awareness but since being with the organisation I have been learning to do access auditing from what I now call 'the more technical perspective'. I am really looking forward to learning from your knowledge, experience and different outlooks. We would particularly like to make links with any other access groups so if you come from that emphasis please drop me a line.
>
> Anyway, I have an enquiry. I think I know the situation here but thought it best to check with you all. We've just had an enquiry from someone fed up that the accessible parking in his local shopping centre is not well monitored so is often abused. He's been told the reason staff from the shopping centre don't do that is that they don't own the car park so it's not their responsibility. I believe the technical term for this response is 'bunkum'.
>
> Could someone, particularly with knowledge of how the Equality Act is supposed to work, advise me if I'm correct please and if so point me in the direction of the most appropriate section of the act that relates too.
>
> Many thanks in advance
>
> Jon
>
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 07:49:05 +0000
From: "Hunt, Alan" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: My first enquiry - re accessible car parking
If you have received this email in error, please notify us by telephone on 01437 764551 and delete it from your computer immediately. Os ydych chi wedi derbyn yr e-bost hwn trwy gamgymeriad, byddwch cystal â rhoi gwybod inni trwy ffonio 01437 764551. Wedyn dylech ddileu’r e-bost ar unwaith oddi ar eich cyfrifiadur.
I think Vin is right unfortunately.
There is guidance in BS8300 and from Department for Transport on the amount of spaces that should be provided but this is only guidance. However the reasonable adjustments duty under the Equality Act means that whoever is providing the service (car park) must make sure that disabled people are not excluded. This also means that where provision for disabled people to park is made, the spaces have to be accessible otherwise they would be found to be ineffective as an adjustment under the Act. "Accessible" not only means convenient, well signed and of sufficient size but that the spaces must be managed to ensure that they are not abused otherwise they could be deemed not fit for purpose. Of course all this would have to be argued through the courts unless anyone knows of any existing cases which might set a precedence. It would be worth using the Questions Procedure to challenge the car park owners in the first instance and take things from there.
Regards
Alan Hunt
Access Officer
Pembrokeshire County Council
County Hall
Haverfordwest
SA61 1TP
Tel: 01437 775148
-----Original Message-----
From: Accessibuilt list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Vin
Sent: 23 October 2014 21:02
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: My first enquiry - re accessible car parking
Hi Jon,
not good news I’m afraid - from what I know this would be a private car park [whether the shopping centre owns it or not, although if the shopping centre were owned by the local authority that would open up the Public Sector Equality Duties as a means of support] and in private areas the car parking has no legal status. Which leaves only persuading whoever owns the car park to behave like human beings and enforce the usual rules of Blue Badge Parking or, failing that, using the press to embarrass them into doing so. The fact is I’m afraid that Blue Badge parking spaces have no legal status in private car parks - just one of the bizarre anomalies of a legal system that basically screws disable people while pretending to protect them! :-)
very best of luck with whatever approach you take!
Regards,
Vin
Vin West
Chair
Arfon Access Group
01286880761
07771536760
Glyn Dwr
Llandwrog Uchaf
Caernarfon
LL54 7RA
[log in to unmask]
> On 23 Oct 2014, at 12:00, Jon Burke <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I have just joined the list so although I already recognise a few names of people posting, I will start by introducing myself. I have been Access Project Manager of Manchester Disabled People's Access Group (MDPAG) for just over a year. As the title suggests I do manage our access work but I also really co-ordinate all our day to day activities. This includes a range of access consultancy services, training local disabled people to become NRAC accredited access auditors, involving our members in various access related consultations and generally campaigning for improved access in Manchester and the surrounding area. I came to the organisation with what I called at the time a fair amount of 'informal access' experience and awareness but since being with the organisation I have been learning to do access auditing from what I now call 'the more technical perspective'. I am really looking forward to learning from your knowledge, experience and different outlooks. We would particularly like to make links with any other access groups so if you come from that emphasis please drop me a line.
>
> Anyway, I have an enquiry. I think I know the situation here but thought it best to check with you all. We've just had an enquiry from someone fed up that the accessible parking in his local shopping centre is not well monitored so is often abused. He's been told the reason staff from the shopping centre don't do that is that they don't own the car park so it's not their responsibility. I believe the technical term for this response is 'bunkum'.
>
> Could someone, particularly with knowledge of how the Equality Act is supposed to work, advise me if I'm correct please and if so point me in the direction of the most appropriate section of the act that relates too.
>
> Many thanks in advance
>
> Jon
>
> ----------End of Message----------
> Run by SURFACE for more information on research, teaching and consultancy:
> http://www.surface.salford.ac.uk
> Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion list are located at http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
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Dim ond y sawl y mae'r ddogfen hon wedi'i chyfeirio atynt ddylai ei darllen, a'i defnyddio ganddynt ar gyfer ei dibenion bwriadedig; ac ni ddylid fel arall ei hatgynhyrchu, copio, lledaenu, datgelu, addasu, dosbarthu, cyhoeddi na'i rhoi ar waith chwaith. Os ydych chi wedi derbyn yr e-bost hwn trwy gamgymeriad, byddwch cystal a rhoi gwybod i ni ar unwaith trwy ffonio 01437 764551 a'i ddileu oddi ar eich cyfrifiadur ar unwaith. Ni ddylid rhoi'r cyfeiriad e-bost i unrhyw drydydd parti na'i ddefnyddio ar gyfer unrhyw ddiben arall chwaith.
Gwefan Cyngor Sir Penfro - http://www.pembrokeshire.gov.uk
Sylwer: Mae negeseuon e-bost sy’n cael eu hanfon a’u derbyn yn cael eu monitro’n rheolaidd ar gyfer cydymffurfio â’n Diogelwch TG, a’n Polisi E-bost/Rhyngrwyd.
Mae'r llofnod hwn hefyd yn cadarnhau bod y neges e-bost hon wedi cael ei harchwilio am fodolaeth firysau cyfrifiadurol a chod maleisus.
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 09:27:04 +0100
From: Martin McConaghy <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: My first enquiry - re accessible car parking
I agree with Alan on this. It's quite clear cut. I am out at the moment but it think there is a phrase 'manage and maintain' or similar in the code of practice.
In terms of precedent, only car parking legal challenge I am aware of is the one discussed at NRAC's conference - not management of, but it did result in a lift being installed.
Regards
Martin
Martin McConaghy MSc MCIOB IEC NRAC
Director
IDACS (UK) Ltd.
Mobile: 07779034333
Tel: 0113 250 7737
Email: [log in to unmask]
Web: www.idacs.co.uk
8 Harrogate Road, Rawdon, Leeds, LS19 6HJ
> On 24 Oct 2014, at 08:50, "Hunt, Alan" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> If you have received this email in error, please notify us by telephone on 01437 764551 and delete it from your computer immediately. Os ydych chi wedi derbyn yr e-bost hwn trwy gamgymeriad, byddwch cystal â rhoi gwybod inni trwy ffonio 01437 764551. Wedyn dylech ddileu’r e-bost ar unwaith oddi ar eich cyfrifiadur.
>
>
> I think Vin is right unfortunately.
> There is guidance in BS8300 and from Department for Transport on the amount of spaces that should be provided but this is only guidance. However the reasonable adjustments duty under the Equality Act means that whoever is providing the service (car park) must make sure that disabled people are not excluded. This also means that where provision for disabled people to park is made, the spaces have to be accessible otherwise they would be found to be ineffective as an adjustment under the Act. "Accessible" not only means convenient, well signed and of sufficient size but that the spaces must be managed to ensure that they are not abused otherwise they could be deemed not fit for purpose. Of course all this would have to be argued through the courts unless anyone knows of any existing cases which might set a precedence. It would be worth using the Questions Procedure to challenge the car park owners in the first instance and take things from there.
>
> Regards
>
> Alan Hunt
> Access Officer
> Pembrokeshire County Council
> County Hall
> Haverfordwest
> SA61 1TP
> Tel: 01437 775148
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Accessibuilt list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Vin
> Sent: 23 October 2014 21:02
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: My first enquiry - re accessible car parking
>
> Hi Jon,
> not good news I’m afraid - from what I know this would be a private car park [whether the shopping centre owns it or not, although if the shopping centre were owned by the local authority that would open up the Public Sector Equality Duties as a means of support] and in private areas the car parking has no legal status. Which leaves only persuading whoever owns the car park to behave like human beings and enforce the usual rules of Blue Badge Parking or, failing that, using the press to embarrass them into doing so. The fact is I’m afraid that Blue Badge parking spaces have no legal status in private car parks - just one of the bizarre anomalies of a legal system that basically screws disable people while pretending to protect them! :-)
>
> very best of luck with whatever approach you take!
>
> Regards,
>
> Vin
>
> Vin West
> Chair
> Arfon Access Group
> 01286880761
> 07771536760
> Glyn Dwr
> Llandwrog Uchaf
> Caernarfon
> LL54 7RA
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>> On 23 Oct 2014, at 12:00, Jon Burke <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I have just joined the list so although I already recognise a few names of people posting, I will start by introducing myself. I have been Access Project Manager of Manchester Disabled People's Access Group (MDPAG) for just over a year. As the title suggests I do manage our access work but I also really co-ordinate all our day to day activities. This includes a range of access consultancy services, training local disabled people to become NRAC accredited access auditors, involving our members in various access related consultations and generally campaigning for improved access in Manchester and the surrounding area. I came to the organisation with what I called at the time a fair amount of 'informal access' experience and awareness but since being with the organisation I have been learning to do access auditing from what I now call 'the more technical perspective'. I am really looking forward to learning from your knowledge, experience and different outlooks. We would particularly like to make links with any other access groups so if you come from that emphasis please drop me a line.
>>
>> Anyway, I have an enquiry. I think I know the situation here but thought it best to check with you all. We've just had an enquiry from someone fed up that the accessible parking in his local shopping centre is not well monitored so is often abused. He's been told the reason staff from the shopping centre don't do that is that they don't own the car park so it's not their responsibility. I believe the technical term for this response is 'bunkum'.
>>
>> Could someone, particularly with knowledge of how the Equality Act is supposed to work, advise me if I'm correct please and if so point me in the direction of the most appropriate section of the act that relates too.
>>
>> Many thanks in advance
>>
>> Jon
>>
>> ----------End of Message----------
>> Run by SURFACE for more information on research, teaching and consultancy:
>> http://www.surface.salford.ac.uk
>> Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion list are located at http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
>
> ----------End of Message----------
> Run by SURFACE for more information on research, teaching and consultancy:
> http://www.surface.salford.ac.uk
> Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion list are located at http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
>
> **************************************************************************************************************
>
> This document should only be read by those persons to whom it is addressed, and be used by them for its intended purpose; and must not otherwise be reproduced, copied, disseminated, disclosed, modified, distributed, published or actioned. If you have received this email in error, please notify us immediately by telephone on 01437 764551 and delete it from your computer immediately. This email address must not be passed on to any third party nor be used for any other purpose.
>
> Pembrokeshire County Council Website - http://www.pembrokeshire.gov.uk
>
> Please Note: Incoming and outgoing e-mail messages are routinely monitored for compliance with our IT Security, and Email/Internet Policy.
>
> This signature also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses and malicious code.
>
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> Dim ond y sawl y mae'r ddogfen hon wedi'i chyfeirio atynt ddylai ei darllen, a'i defnyddio ganddynt ar gyfer ei dibenion bwriadedig; ac ni ddylid fel arall ei hatgynhyrchu, copio, lledaenu, datgelu, addasu, dosbarthu, cyhoeddi na'i rhoi ar waith chwaith. Os ydych chi wedi derbyn yr e-bost hwn trwy gamgymeriad, byddwch cystal a rhoi gwybod i ni ar unwaith trwy ffonio 01437 764551 a'i ddileu oddi ar eich cyfrifiadur ar unwaith. Ni ddylid rhoi'r cyfeiriad e-bost i unrhyw drydydd parti na'i ddefnyddio ar gyfer unrhyw ddiben arall chwaith.
>
> Gwefan Cyngor Sir Penfro - http://www.pembrokeshire.gov.uk
>
> Sylwer: Mae negeseuon e-bost sy’n cael eu hanfon a’u derbyn yn cael eu monitro’n rheolaidd ar gyfer cydymffurfio â’n Diogelwch TG, a’n Polisi E-bost/Rhyngrwyd.
>
> Mae'r llofnod hwn hefyd yn cadarnhau bod y neges e-bost hon wedi cael ei harchwilio am fodolaeth firysau cyfrifiadurol a chod maleisus.
>
> ***************************************************************************************************************
>
>
>
> ----------End of Message----------
> Run by SURFACE for more information on research, teaching and consultancy:
> http://www.surface.salford.ac.uk
> Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion list are located at http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 12:18:37 +0100
From: Jon Burke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: My first enquiry - re accessible car parking
Thanks for all your replies folks, but I'm afraid I'm even more confused now...
First Vin says 'Blue Badge parking spaces have no legal status in private car parks'.
Then Alan starts off by saying 'I think Vin is right unfortunately'
But then he goes on to say 'the reasonable adjustments duty under the Equality Act means that where provision for disabled people to park is made, the spaces have to be accessible otherwise they would be found to be ineffective as an adjustment under the Act. "Accessible" not only means convenient, well signed and of sufficient size but that the spaces must be managed to ensure that they are not abused otherwise they could be deemed not fit for purpose.'
But Alan's last point is exactly what I was hoping for because what's the point in providing accessible spaces if you can't use them because they're not patrolled properly and therefore filled by people not displaying blue badges?!
And even if Blue Badge parking spaces does have no legal status in private car parks, doesn't the Equality Act take precedence over the regulations that say that?
By the way, we're definitely talking about commercial premises, not council owned or managed so I'm confident the public sector duty doesn't apply.
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 14:25:53 +0100
From: Vin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: My first enquiry - re accessible car parking
the point I was making was that the Blue Badge Scheme itself has no legal status once you are off-road.
In terms of the Equality Act and reasonable adjustments, people’s rights can only be enforced through individual civil action through the county courts: the legislation was written to fail disabled people under the pretext of protecting them.
Having said that, the Act has been used to advance equality where all parties are willing participants.
If you can convince commercial operators that you have the weight of the law behind you and they are ignorant enough to believe you then you can sometimes get results but mostly you will need them to be good citizens who want to do the right thing within their budgets to succeed.
You can try using the argument of proportionality: this is where the level of reasonable adjustments are weighed against the company’s finances, so a corner shop would be reasonable refusing to do more than add a grab rail for the steps into the shop whereas a large chain could be expected to spend a proportionately greater amount and plan and carry out more profound changes, including ongoing management practices; but the bottom line is that the Act has no real teeth and the EHRC has backed away from any enforcement role.
If you have been watching the high court appeals by ILF recipients against the UK government’s barbaric behaviour you will have seen that even where a high court finds in favour of disabled people the decision has no force or effect and the minister simply reasserted the previous decision on the basis that he had thought about it again and came to the same conclusion.
Sorry to be pessimistic but better forewarned.
Regards,
Vin
Vin West
Chair
Arfon Access Group
01286880761
07771536760
Glyn Dwr
Llandwrog Uchaf
Caernarfon
LL54 7RA
[log in to unmask]
> On 24 Oct 2014, at 12:18, Jon Burke <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Thanks for all your replies folks, but I'm afraid I'm even more confused now...
>
> First Vin says 'Blue Badge parking spaces have no legal status in private car parks'.
>
> Then Alan starts off by saying 'I think Vin is right unfortunately'
>
> But then he goes on to say 'the reasonable adjustments duty under the Equality Act means that where provision for disabled people to park is made, the spaces have to be accessible otherwise they would be found to be ineffective as an adjustment under the Act. "Accessible" not only means convenient, well signed and of sufficient size but that the spaces must be managed to ensure that they are not abused otherwise they could be deemed not fit for purpose.'
>
> But Alan's last point is exactly what I was hoping for because what's the point in providing accessible spaces if you can't use them because they're not patrolled properly and therefore filled by people not displaying blue badges?!
>
> And even if Blue Badge parking spaces does have no legal status in private car parks, doesn't the Equality Act take precedence over the regulations that say that?
>
> By the way, we're definitely talking about commercial premises, not council owned or managed so I'm confident the public sector duty doesn't apply.
>
> ----------End of Message----------
> Run by SURFACE for more information on research, teaching and consultancy:
> http://www.surface.salford.ac.uk
> Archives for the Accessibuilt discussion list are located at http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/accessibuilt.html
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2014 16:13:37 +0100
From: "Gravelle, Robert" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: High Street, Cardiff - shared space
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/djleekee/6944919415/>
<http://yourcardiff.mediawales-1.titaninternet.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/st-mary-street.jpg>
Dr Robert Gravelle
Access Officer / Swyddog Mynediad
Room 243 / Ystafell 243
Cardiff Council / Cyngor Caerdydd
County Hall / Neuadd y Sir
Cardiff / Caerdydd
CF10 4UW.
Tel / Ffôn : (02920) 87 26 27
Email : [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
E-bost : [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
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End of ACCESSIBUILT Digest - 23 Oct 2014 to 24 Oct 2014 (#2014-102)
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