Hi Jude & Helen
Having done a fair bit of converting back and forth between various GISs, there are so many opportunities for getting it a bit wrong without it being immediately apparent, so impossible to know whether the discrepancies are user error or something inherant in the data. However, I'd agree the OS national grid would the way to go, from GPS recording to PAS database to GIS upload.
Cheers
Sarah
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Sarah Poppy
Assistant Inspector of Ancient Monuments (Cambs, Herts and Essex)
English Heritage
24 Brooklands Avenue
Cambridge
CB2 8BU
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jude Plouviez
Sent: 08 August 2013 13:25
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: PAS
I agree that that is a significant error/difference - and though I don't have much experience of using Lat/Long I did notice a similiarly large displacement once when I converted a Lat/Long spot location in MapInfo (I assumed I'd set something wrong in MapInfo at the time). Seems like we should definitely go with the eastings/northings, and also suggest to your local FLO that any GPS users should be using the easting/northing settings on their machines so that the incoming data is compatible.
Jude
Judith Plouviez
Archaeological Officer
Suffolk County Council Archaeological Service 9-10 Churchyard, Shire Hall Bury St Edmunds IP33 1RX
01284 741235
email [log in to unmask]
website http://www.suffolk.gov.uk/libraries-and-culture/culture-and-heritage/archaeology/
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Helen Wells (Archaeology)
Sent: 08 August 2013 09:22
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: PAS
Hi,
At the risk of starting something up again, and with no criticism of the scheme, it bothers me that if PAS is being given good data I'm not using it as well as I could. When I map something with the eastings/northings it is in one place, and when I map with the lat/long it's 200m to the north-west. Perhaps that is an irrelevant distance, but these days people tend to record things a lot better than in the old days, so I guess I'm getting fussier! I just wondered why this was the case. If it's just the way the lat/long is derived and the eastings/northings is more likely to be in the right place, I'll use that.
Helen Wells
Historic Environment Record Officer
Leicestershire County Council
Planning, Historic & Natural Environment, Leicestershire County Council, County Hall, Glenfield, Leics, LE3 8RA
Telephone: 0116 3058323 / E-mail: [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jude Plouviez
Sent: 07 August 2013 16:43
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: PAS
Years of practice!
Agreed about the context/point, equally true for almost all HER spatial data relating to archaeology
Jude
________________________________________
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Webster [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 07 August 2013 15:06
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: PAS
Why are you PAS people so defensive?
My point was that the conversion errors of Lat/Long to NGR is irrelevantly small - I'm not sure how many times I have to say it.
Chris Webster
Historic Environment Record
Somerset County Council
Somerset Heritage Centre
Brunel Way
Taunton
TA2 6SF
01823 347434
Online HER: www.somerset.gov.uk/her
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Daniel Pett
Sent: 07 August 2013 14:42
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: PAS
Dear Chris,
I'm sorry to hear this is your view. The Scheme's staff, managers, volunteers and finders have worked very hard since 2003 to improve the veracity of the find spots that we record. Out of over 1/2 million records, only 48,264 now do not have any coordinates attached. 490,483 records have a grid ref of 6 figures or more. 279,348 have a grid ref of 8 figures or more. For your county, 8,156 records have a grid ref of 6 figures or more, and 2,102 are of 8 figures or more (out of 9,557 records). I believe recording to 100 metre square was the minimum requirement for HER usage.
Within the database we have internal metadata that flags up how the grid reference was obtained, our perceived certainty to how precise the grid reference offered is and its length. Each record provides the facility to flag up errors to the finds liaison officer responsible and to our finds adviser team. The introduction of visible maps on every record has cut down errors drastically and we get feedback from many of the researchers that can use our NATIONAL dataset (licenced under very liberal cc-by-sa) when they find problems; for example see Bevan's article in Antiquity. The HBSMR download does not include every spatial field that we record by design, this could be changed if needed.
Yes there are methodological issues over collection of data, I'm sure there are within HER work too. We're aware of problems with data and we're working to improve or rectify problems. The derived co-ordinates can be rectified easily, the capture of spatial data in the first instance is the hardest part.
If you have problems with data recorded in Somerset, perhaps you could talk to your Finds Liaison Officers, Rob and Laura? I'm sure they would value any support you could offer.
Yours,
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Webster
Sent: 07 August 2013 12:48
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: PAS
I'm sure it's getting better - but there will always be doubt about the methodology and the veracity of the locations provided. But my main point was that conversion errors between lat/long and NGR are irrelevant in these circumstances.
Chris Webster
Historic Environment Record
Somerset County Council
Somerset Heritage Centre
Brunel Way
Taunton
TA2 6SF
01823 347434
Online HER: www.somerset.gov.uk/her
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jude Plouviez
Sent: 07 August 2013 12:43
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: PAS
No Chris, I'm not letting that go - some PAS data is poorly located (usually by parish only and then has a centred parish NGR, most irritating when it turns up in the middle of the built-up village area and needs checking for planning consultation purposes!) and there is an issue about how to convey doubt about veracity in some circumstances. But a large majority of East Anglian records are accurate, at least to field centre, and some finders have and use portable GPS so within 10m. And we ask them to set to OD rather than Lat/Long so that everything is collected on the same base.
It is all a question of persuasion, persistance etc, and the starting point is to make sure that the FLO's understood the importance of accurate location and have access to good digital mapping if there are problems; there are also often issues with FLO's recording finds from out of their own area , we always encourage sending specific area map copies to try and help get the best results.
Incidentally systematic detecting and field-walking surveys seem to be showing that, within a long-term arable field, individual finds can be scattered very widely from their original deposition spot, although distribution plots do still show trends that probably reflect the original situation - this will vary for all sorts of reasons of course.
Jude
Archaeological Officer, Suffolk County Council
________________________________________
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Rec ords [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Webster [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 07 August 2013 09:49
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: PAS
And it doesn't really matter as much of the PAS data is very poorly located.
Chris Webster
Historic Environment Record
Somerset County Council
Somerset Heritage Centre
Brunel Way
Taunton
TA2 6SF
01823 347434
Online HER: www.somerset.gov.uk/her
________________________________
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crispin Flower
Sent: 07 August 2013 09:47
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: PAS
Hi Helen
Dan’s post made it clear that the long/lat are derived from the OS grid refs (“Grid references are converted to LatLon pair using this script…”) suggesting you’d be better using the OSGB data as that is what was originally recorded.
Yours
Crispin
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Helen Wells (Archaeology)
Sent: 07 August 2013 09:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: PAS
Hi all,
Just to let you all know, the PAS website uses the lat/long to map the finds, so I’m going to go with that rather than the eastings/northings. The bit of Leicestershire I was looking at mapped things quite differently depending on whether I used lat/long or eastings/northings, so I’m not completely sure which to plump for. I should probably get on with something else and stop worrying about it…!
Helen Wells
Historic Environment Record Officer
Leicestershire County Council
Planning, Historic & Natural Environment, Leicestershire County Council, County Hall, Glenfield, Leics, LE3 8RA
Telephone: 0116 3058323 / E-mail: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Emily Brants
Sent: 06 August 2013 17:45
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: PAS
Hello Helen,
We use essentially the same process to export the PAS data, to create a separate ArcView overlay for internal use in conjunction with our existing HER and constraint layers. Due to the quantity of PAS records, I prefer this than trying to integrate the data into our main HER database (which is in-house developed and not wonderful at recording finds data anyway!). Personally, I think it works better as a separate layer for ease of analysis/comparison with the others we hold. However I would like the time/resources to use the data to identify new areas of archaeological potential or re-evaluate existing earthwork monuments as I'm sure there is interesting research to be done!
Emily
Emily Brants
Surrey HER Officer
Heritage Conservation Team
Surrey County Council
Surrey History Centre
130 Goldsworth Road
Woking
Surrey
GU21 6ND
01483 518751
Graham Tait <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Sent by: Issues related to Historic Environment Records <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
06/08/13 16:17
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Subject
Re: PAS
Hi Helen,
Yes, we do almost exactly the same thing here in Devon, so we can see the PAS data in our HER GIS for internal use. We do this as we also don’t have the resources to integrate the PAS records with our HER records.
We take the ‘Export for HER import’ csv export for all the records in the county, then add to ArcMap as XY data. I’ve used the eastings/northings data, and this has worked ok in the past. In addition I’ve added a field called ‘URL’ to our data, calculated to be "http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/xxxxx" where xxxxx is the field ‘IDOfFind’. This allows us to go directly to the record from the GIS. <http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/xxxxx>
It’d be nice if this URL field could be added to the ‘Export for HER import’, as that would save some work. It’d be even better if this PAS data could be made available in a Web Map Service (or Web Feature Service), so that we don’t have to keep updating our PAS layer. I asked Dan about this about three years ago; but I think the PAS has other priorities, and as you say, Dan is always very busy ☺.
Hope that helps.
Graham
--
Graham Tait
Archaeologist
Historic Environment Team
Devon County Council
Lucombe House
County Hall
Exeter
EX2 4QD
Telephone: 01392 382214
Email: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Web: http://www.devon.gov.uk/historicenvironment
Disclaimer: http://www.devon.gov.uk/email
From: Helen Wells (Archaeology) [mailto:[log in to unmask]]<mailto:[mailto:[log in to unmask]]>
Sent: 06 August 2013 15:48
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: [HERFORUM] PAS
Hi everyone,
I was just wondering if anyone else makes a PAS layer to display in their HER. We don’t have the resources to integrate the records properly so I’ve been exporting a CSV file from the PAS website and using it to create a Mapinfo TAB, just so we can see the data when looking at planning apps etc. Was wondering how people did it, if anyone else does the same sort of thing! I noticed last week that using the eastings/northings creates a very different map to using the lat/long. I asked Dan about this and I’m sure he’ll get back to me at some point, but he’s always so busy. ☺
Thanks,
Helen Wells
Historic Environment Record Officer
Leicestershire County Council
Planning, Historic & Natural Environment, Leicestershire County Council, County Hall, Glenfield, Leics, LE3 8RA
Telephone: 0116 3058323 / E-mail: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
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