I found Jason's analogy of Oxfam shops really helpful. The primary purpose of Oxfam is welfare, and it participates in commerce in order to help achieve its charitable objectives.
Similarly, although as Andy says 'offering an undergraduate course is a commercial activity', well yes it is; but isn't education it's primary purpose ?
It seems to me that there's a recognisable distinction between charitable-status universities whose primary purpose is education, and (for example) venture capitalists investing in Mooc platforms, whose primary purpose is profit-making.
Tony
From: Andy Powell [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 23 July 2013 17:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of CC NC licences within UK F/HE - can we reach consensus?
> discussion
> this morning led David Kernohan to ask if it might be possible to define what
> these terms mean within the context of our own community, i.e. UK F/HE.
Well, just checking Google. 'commercial' means 'concerned with or engaged in commerce' and 'commerce' means 'the activity of buying and selling'.
If we ignore the status of the institutions themselves (FWIW, I would argue that they are both charitable and commercial - as is Eduserv as it happens) and, rather, think about individual activities. if an activity does not include buying or selling then it is non-commercial.
Offering an undergraduate course is a commercial activity.
Offering an 'open' educational resource is non-commercial (even when done by an organisation that is otherwise engaged in commercial activities - I think the CC guidance is loose enough to accept this).
Attempting to restrict future use of an OER such that it should never be bought or sold (or incorporated into something that is bought or sold) is in line with CC-NC.
But. doing so, would stop other universities incorporating those EORs into undergraduate courses that are themselves commercial (i.e that are bought and sold).
I'm not sure where this is leading.!
Trying to define 'non-commercial' in the context of education such that traditional universities are ruled in while newer (perhaps more overtly commercial) providers are ruled out doesn't sound like it's going to be easy. Was that the intention?
Sorry. I know I'm not helping :-(
Andy Powell
Head of Product Research
Eduserv
[log in to unmask] | 01225 474 319 | 07989 476 710
www.eduserv.org.uk | @andypowe11 | blog.eduserv.org.uk | LinkedIn
Eduserv is a company limited by guarantee (registered in England & Wales, company number: 3763109) and a charity (charity number 1079456), whose registered office is at Royal Mead, Railway Place, Bath, BA1 1SR.
From: Open Educational Resources [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jason Miles-Campbell
Sent: 23 July 2013 17:14
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of CC NC licences within UK F/HE - can we reach consensus?
Charitable status certainly doesn't guarantee "non-commercial", however. For example, an organisation might raise a surplus through commercial trade in order to fulfil charitable purposes - Oxfam shops, perhaps?
Cheers,
Jason
Jason Miles-Campbell | Manager | Jisc Legal | T 0141 548 2889 | E [log in to unmask]
Jisc Legal, a Jisc Advance service, is hosted by the University of Strathclyde, a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC015263
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Open Educational Resources [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf Of Lorna Campbell
> Sent: 23 July 2013 17:08
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Use of CC NC licences within UK F/HE - can we reach consensus?
>
> Hi Tony,
>
> That's an interesting point regarding universities charitable status. Is that not
> changing though?
>
> Cheers
> Lorna
>
> On 23 Jul 2013, at 16:54, T.Coughlan wrote:
>
> Hi Nick,
> "We're still public sector of course" - but as most UK universities are charities,
> isn't there an equal argument for saying we're third sector?
>
> Charitable status and NC seem to me to be happy bedfellows. We play by the
> rules of charitable status (more or less), so why shouldn't NC be included as
> part of the package?
>
> Lorna - yes, it's a good idea to air these issues!
>
> Tony
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sheppard, Nick [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 23 July 2013 16:42
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Use of CC NC licences within UK F/HE - can we reach consensus?
>
> I think many folk in HE have a knee jerk reaction to NC and become
> apoplectic at the thought of the grubby commercial sector using our OER for
> commercial gain! (We're still public sector of course :-!)
>
> I probably shared that view myself not so long ago but would now argue for
> the lowest barrier licensing possible.
>
> I'm not sure I'm clever or politically literate enough to think through the
> implications but I've have similarly lively discussions on twitter around the
> neo-liberal agenda that has contributed to normalising CC-BY for research
> such that it can be mandated by RCUK (to much teeth gnashing of course.)
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Open Educational Resources [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf Of Lorna Campbell
> Sent: 23 July 2013 16:29
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Use of CC NC licences within UK F/HE - can we reach consensus?
>
> Hi there,
>
> Earlier today there was a short but lively discussion on twitter about the pros,
> cons and ambiguities of using the CC NC licence in academic contexts. I'm
> sure many of your will be aware of the complex issues that this raises,
> particularly with regard to whether or not education is regarded as a
> commercial activity. If anything, these issues have become more pressing
> with the advent of commercial MOOC providers such as FutureLearn. Trying
> to define "commercial" "non-commercial" and even "education" in global
> terms is a difficult task if not impossible task, however our twitter discussion
> this morning led David Kernohan to ask if it might be possible to define what
> these terms mean within the context of our own community, i.e. UK F/HE.
> So what do you think, is there any mileage in trying to agree how and in what
> context the CC NC licence can be used appropriately within UK Higher and
> Further Education? What are the chances of us being able to reach a
> consensus? Would it be useful just to air the issues? Let us know what you
> think!
>
> Cheers
> Lorna
>
> --
> Lorna M. Campbell
> CETIS Assistant Director
> Email:
> l<mailto:[log in to unmask]>[log in to unmask]<mailto:orna.m.ca
> [log in to unmask]>
> Skype: lorna120768
>
>
> To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to
> http://disclaimer.leedsmet.ac.uk/email.htm
> -- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an
> exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC
> 038302).
>
> --
> Lorna M. Campbell
> JISC CETIS Assistant Director
> University of Strathclyde
> Glasgow
> Email: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Phone: +44141 548 3072
> Skype: lorna120768
>
> The University of Strathclyde is a charitable body, registered in Scotland,
> number SC015263.
-- The Open University is incorporated by Royal Charter (RC 000391), an exempt charity in England & Wales and a charity registered in Scotland (SC 038302).
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