Yes David, this has appeared here a couple of times. Always amused me  
to find myself grouped with Upton and Riley, chuffed to be put in the  
company of such excellent poets - but as far as I know Roddy Lumsden  
doesn't know my work anyhow - certainly doesn't know me - never worn  
elbow patches. It actually reminded me of the picture many of the  
young NewGen bloods in the 90's tried to paint of the avants - slag  
them off as old fashioned and out of touch etc. - old profs and hippes  
up their own arses. It didn't succeed of course, but it did its damage  
as usual.

And yes, some of them did get short thrift here when they tried to  
peddle their prejudices - Sean O'Brian especially. Not sure what they  
expected really - slag a load of poets off in anthology intros and  
reviews as being 'inferior' and producing 'poor work' and then  
expecting some of those same names to treat them with some kind of  
respect.

As for Lumsden's views on the Listservs, he's only partly right. What  
the Listservs did (and some still do) is not the same as the blogs etc  
and what they did has not been repeated in other forums. (Not too  
difficult to work out why.) I've been on this one for years but only  
contribute these days when something explodes - people can moan about  
Jeff Side all they like but he hasn't half produced some sparky  
discussions here. The main problem with Listservs is people not  
realising what such a thing is going to produce. Of course it is going  
to produce (when it's alive) endless tedium for those who are not into  
the topic or whatever. And there is something about the way it works  
that invites all the moods and emotions of the contributors at the  
particular times when they are posting (it does tend to show us  
somewhat at our worst at times) - and people are surprised by this,  
which is weird, especially when the complaints sometimes used to come  
from people who were as guilty as anybody.

I made certain mistakes in the old days on Britpo, and I think I  
learnt my lesson, but I would still prefer that chaos to the stale  
state it is often in these days. It is true that Britpo has lost its  
importance, but out there the same topics and issues are as hot as ever.

Like some others here, like Dave B., I am also on poetryetc, but only  
as a lurker - I like to read Patrick's and Lawrence's poems there. But  
there you have a limited band of regular contributors who seem quite  
happy with what they've got and still get a lot out of it. I also hear  
that the Miami list is buzzing these days.

Cheers

Tim A.


On 19 Jul 2013, at 13:36, David Lace wrote:

> Just came across this by Roddy Lumsden from the Poets on Fire forum.  
> It’s a few years old but an eye opener all the same:
>
>
>
> “As for wider comments about BritPo and the listservs, I have some  
> to make...
>
> The email based listservs have now had their day. I think any  
> connection between the booming health of UKLIP and the crapulous  
> BritPo is unproductive though. Even forums like this one will  
> probably be dead in another five-ten years and I don't want to take  
> anything away from the important, exciting business of connecting  
> disparate minds which was done by poetryetc, britpo, wompo and the  
> rest. But it's time to knock some of those old forums on the head -  
> they have mainly become ad sites and, in the case of petc, just  
> another terrible-poem-post site.
>
> As to Britpo specifically, it has been a soap opera with a dwindling  
> audience for years. The reasons for this are complex and would take  
> long explanations which would be as tedious as trying to explain  
> Hollyoaks to someone who hasn't seen it since '02. A few reasons are  
> obvious though...
>
> - as I've said before, though set up as a discussion forum for poets  
> writing outside of the mainstream, all too often it has been a crap- 
> shoot for puppies humping the ankles of the mainstream, and that has  
> never been stamped on as much as it should have been - it has put a  
> lot of LIP poets off joining and being tarred with that stick
>
> - none of the younger innovative poets want anything to do with  
> britpo - and its whiff of jazz, elbow patches, fag-smoke and 70s  
> politics - it's like walking in on your old folks doing it!
>
> - the major reason for its demise is the demise of the list-serv,  
> but second was the change of moderators to Byrne and Rupert Mallin  
> some time back - perfectly credible choices in some ways, but, well,  
> not exactly 'innovative' poets, given the list's focus. Mallin had  
> also, near to the changeover, made some disparaging comments about  
> the state of UK/I innovative poetry - the last straw for many of the  
> bristly old guard like Upton, Allen and Riley.
>
> - most of the posters who plaster their ads and poems over the site  
> clearly never read the rest and don't contribute to the community -  
> this sleazy practice ought to have a name really - I'm sure it does!
>
> - most of the posters left there have never even heard of most of  
> the fabulous newer poets writing innovative poetry in the US, UK and  
> elsewhere (and this will be splendidly proved by a clear lack of  
> response to Chris' new post there asking about what is going on now  
> - expect tumbleweeds). And most of them, oddly, are not even  
> innovative poets but old bores of the self-appointed maverick  
> tendency!
>
> Time to put it quietly to sleep I think, as happened with  
> Crossroads, which had more credibility and distinctly more viewers.”
>
>
>
> http://z11.invisionfree.com/Poets_On_Fire/ar/t627.htm