Hi Tim,
After boring everyone witless with that last thread, I'm reluctant to pick 
another quarrel.
But.
I don't quite recognize your narrative here when you say:

It actually reminded me of the picture many of the
young NewGen bloods in the 90's tried to paint of the avants - slag
them off as old fashioned and out of touch etc. - old profs and hippies
up their own arses. It didn't succeed of course, but it did its damage
as usual.

Having had a small wheel-on part in that dubious phenomenon, I must have 
totally missed the action: "many of the young NewGen bloods..."? To the best 
of my knowledge, at the time, only Glyn Maxwell wrote some polemical TLS 
review of various avant-garde poets.
    And that's it.
    More than a decade later Don Paterson wrote an intro for a US-published 
British anthology in which he weirdly dedicates a vast amount of the  space 
to tilting at the non-mainstream without giving any names or examples.

Soon after the NewGen, as a counter example, Iain Sinclair in the intro to 
Conductors of Chaos dedicated what at the time must have looked like a 
fighting and witty (but in retrospect a rather feeble and randomly 
dismissive) paragraph to the NewGens. And that may be one of the more civil 
contributions. I remember being verbally attacked by a contributor to that 
anthology - someone who had clearly not read a word I'd written. It was my 
first, perhaps rather culpably naive, recognition of how hated "we" were.

Sean O'Brien wasn't a part of the NewGen, though perhaps only because he was 
a year or so over the age limit, who knows. He's can be quite a forthright 
reviewer, but Tim, as someone who claims to review "viciously", this is a 
privilege you'd surely accord to others? I know this list has issues with 
O'Brien - some time ago I read back in the archives to see what had 
happened. I don't think it would be great idea to get back into that, but 
whatever the background (he has become a "them" and a "they") it didn't look 
to me like one of the list's finest hours.

Leaving that aside, I'm curious whether I really did miss this internecine 
war or whether  you're misattributing a lot of animus to the NewGen poets?
Best,
Jamie



-----Original Message----- 
From: Tim Allen
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 4:07 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Salt poetry editor Roddy Lumsden’s comments about the BritPo 
list.

Yes David, this has appeared here a couple of times. Always amused me
to find myself grouped with Upton and Riley, chuffed to be put in the
company of such excellent poets - but as far as I know Roddy Lumsden
doesn't know my work anyhow - certainly doesn't know me - never worn
elbow patches. It actually reminded me of the picture many of the
young NewGen bloods in the 90's tried to paint of the avants - slag
them off as old fashioned and out of touch etc. - old profs and hippes
up their own arses. It didn't succeed of course, but it did its damage
as usual.

And yes, some of them did get short thrift here when they tried to
peddle their prejudices - Sean O'Brian especially. Not sure what they
expected really - slag a load of poets off in anthology intros and
reviews as being 'inferior' and producing 'poor work' and then
expecting some of those same names to treat them with some kind of
respect.

As for Lumsden's views on the Listservs, he's only partly right. What
the Listservs did (and some still do) is not the same as the blogs etc
and what they did has not been repeated in other forums. (Not too
difficult to work out why.) I've been on this one for years but only
contribute these days when something explodes - people can moan about
Jeff Side all they like but he hasn't half produced some sparky
discussions here. The main problem with Listservs is people not
realising what such a thing is going to produce. Of course it is going
to produce (when it's alive) endless tedium for those who are not into
the topic or whatever. And there is something about the way it works
that invites all the moods and emotions of the contributors at the
particular times when they are posting (it does tend to show us
somewhat at our worst at times) - and people are surprised by this,
which is weird, especially when the complaints sometimes used to come
from people who were as guilty as anybody.

I made certain mistakes in the old days on Britpo, and I think I
learnt my lesson, but I would still prefer that chaos to the stale
state it is often in these days. It is true that Britpo has lost its
importance, but out there the same topics and issues are as hot as ever.

Like some others here, like Dave B., I am also on poetryetc, but only
as a lurker - I like to read Patrick's and Lawrence's poems there. But
there you have a limited band of regular contributors who seem quite
happy with what they've got and still get a lot out of it. I also hear
that the Miami list is buzzing these days.

Cheers

Tim A.


On 19 Jul 2013, at 13:36, David Lace wrote:

> Just came across this by Roddy Lumsden from the Poets on Fire forum.  It’s 
> a few years old but an eye opener all the same:
>
>
>
> “As for wider comments about BritPo and the listservs, I have some  to 
> make...
>
> The email based listservs have now had their day. I think any  connection 
> between the booming health of UKLIP and the crapulous  BritPo is 
> unproductive though. Even forums like this one will  probably be dead in 
> another five-ten years and I don't want to take  anything away from the 
> important, exciting business of connecting  disparate minds which was done 
> by poetryetc, britpo, wompo and the  rest. But it's time to knock some of 
> those old forums on the head -  they have mainly become ad sites and, in 
> the case of petc, just  another terrible-poem-post site.
>
> As to Britpo specifically, it has been a soap opera with a dwindling 
> audience for years. The reasons for this are complex and would take  long 
> explanations which would be as tedious as trying to explain  Hollyoaks to 
> someone who hasn't seen it since '02. A few reasons are  obvious though...
>
> - as I've said before, though set up as a discussion forum for poets 
> writing outside of the mainstream, all too often it has been a crap- shoot 
> for puppies humping the ankles of the mainstream, and that has  never been 
> stamped on as much as it should have been - it has put a  lot of LIP poets 
> off joining and being tarred with that stick
>
> - none of the younger innovative poets want anything to do with  britpo - 
> and its whiff of jazz, elbow patches, fag-smoke and 70s  politics - it's 
> like walking in on your old folks doing it!
>
> - the major reason for its demise is the demise of the list-serv,  but 
> second was the change of moderators to Byrne and Rupert Mallin  some time 
> back - perfectly credible choices in some ways, but, well,  not exactly 
> 'innovative' poets, given the list's focus. Mallin had  also, near to the 
> changeover, made some disparaging comments about  the state of UK/I 
> innovative poetry - the last straw for many of the  bristly old guard like 
> Upton, Allen and Riley.
>
> - most of the posters who plaster their ads and poems over the site 
> clearly never read the rest and don't contribute to the community -  this 
> sleazy practice ought to have a name really - I'm sure it does!
>
> - most of the posters left there have never even heard of most of  the 
> fabulous newer poets writing innovative poetry in the US, UK and 
> elsewhere (and this will be splendidly proved by a clear lack of  response 
> to Chris' new post there asking about what is going on now  - expect 
> tumbleweeds). And most of them, oddly, are not even  innovative poets but 
> old bores of the self-appointed maverick  tendency!
>
> Time to put it quietly to sleep I think, as happened with  Crossroads, 
> which had more credibility and distinctly more viewers.”
>
>
>
> http://z11.invisionfree.com/Poets_On_Fire/ar/t627.htm