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Hi all,
In Philadelphia the children also sing "Helicopter Helicopter." One girl sang an inventive song to the same rhythm:
N Sync, N Sync, Please come Down
If you Don't I'll Kiss you Down
Boom boom Boom.
(Referenced in my book, Recess Battles through University Press of Mississippi.)
cheers,
Anna
The University of the Arts
________________________________________
From: The Children's Folklore Mailing List [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of [log in to unmask] [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 4:45 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: interpreting smashed tomatoes & Helicopter
**Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this mailing, it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List. If you want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To line of your message.**
Thanks again. I think we are talking about two different thing, both giving
sense in a nonsensical way for grown ups, but may be of significans to
kids: The first, the one I refered to in my conversation with Andy Arlo are
rescue-helicopter, like airambulance and and the coast-guard rescue fleet
of Sea-Kings and other flying objects, and war machines like
attack-helicopters, Apache and others. Depending on wich side the kids are,
they might have reasons for playing "If my dad was shot down...." or "if my
dad shoot a child like me...."
All the best,
Thor G.
Original email:
-----------------
From: jmckinty [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 15:52:56 +1000
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: interpreting smashed tomatoes & Helicopter
**Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this
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your message.**
Thanks Thor. I can see how the 'helicopter' game could have a particular
relevance to the girls on the island. Laurie and Winifred Bauer found a
version of the game in New Zealand, but it had an updated rhyme:
'Helicopter, helicopter please come down. If you don't I'll shoot you down!'
http://folksong.org.nz/pdf_copies/Bauer_skipgames.pdf
Wonder where that one came from!
Best wishes,
Judy
On 29/05/13 2:26 PM, [log in to unmask] wrote:
> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this
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want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To line of
your message.**
>
> Thank you Judy for telling this. I did not imply that the girls in Hundvåg
> (Skeie skole) had "invented" the game. Nor did Kathren Marsh and I
observed
> it when we did the research for "The MusicaL playground" in 2002-2008
>
> We are facing a global influences game, as many of the others, like
> Teddybear and the rest.
>
> There have been other pop-songs witch included helicopters, we had one
> "Pink helicopter" but that was not accompanied by a game of one sort of
the
> other.
>
> Why the helicopter is included may be the fact that at a time it was a
> novelety and the ability to raise and set vertically was simulated in the
> game. But I will keep a door open for the obvious likelihood that it may
> not descend in and orderly way, but to crash and life being lost. The fact
> remind that most of the inhabitants in the suburban area at the island was
> populated strongly by people working in the "oil" and had their only
> transport to the rig by helicopter. Coincidents? Perhaps, maybe....but
> if....?
>
> Original email:
> -----------------
> From: jmckinty [log in to unmask]
> Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 12:47:38 +1000
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: interpreting smashed tomatoes& Helicopter
>
>
> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this
> mailing, it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List. If you
> want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To line
of
> your message.**
>
> Thor, I think the 'Helicopter' rhyme also has another source. I remember
> playing the same game as a child, and chanting a similar rhyme. This is
> how we played it in Ballarat, Australia, in the 1950s:
> One girl stood in the middle holding both ends of a skipping rope in one
> hand. She swung the (shortened) skipping rope around in a circle above
> her head while we all chanted: 'Helicopter, helicopter please come down.
> Helicopter, helicopter, land on the ground.' At the end of the rhyme,
> the girl in the middle let go of one end of the rope (making it long
> enough to now reach the other players standing around the circle), at
> the same time bringing the rope downwards towards the ground and turning
> herself around with the rope, to keep it skimming just above the ground.
> The other players would try to jump over the rope as it reached them.
> Whoever stopped the rope was out, and the last person left in went in
> the middle next time. You could get really dizzy if you were in the
> middle and the other players were good at jumping over the rope.
>
> A (very) quick look at the Opies books shows me that 'Helicopter,
> helicopter' isn't listed in any index, and it doesn't appear to be in
> Steve Roud's book /The Lore of the Playground/ or the Australian
> compilation /Cinderella Dressed in Yella /either, but it does appear in
> an early edition of /Play and Folklore/ (Nov. 1984, No 7, p.8), in a
> list of playground games described by a 7 year-old girl. I've also come
> across it being played in various places in Australia over the years so
> it's been around in this country for at least 60 years.
>
> Here's the link to /Play and Folklore/ issues published in the 1980s:
>
>
http://museumvictoria.com.au/about/books-and-journals/journals/play-and-folk
> lore/1980-1989/
>
> Best wishes,
> Judy Mckinty
>
>
>
> On 28/05/13 7:18 PM, [log in to unmask] wrote:
>> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this
> mailing, it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List. If you
> want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To line
of
> your message.**
>> I have been thinking how I came to the conclusion that tomatoes equals
>> children in the joke.
>> 1. Children knows that a tomato can not move by itself. It does not
posses
>> feet.
>> 2. Children knows that to cross a road you have to have feet or wheels or
>> being able to fly. Tomatoes cannot walk, roll or fly.
>> 3. When a tomato are crushed it's impact on the road will be similar to
>> that of blood, huiman or what is the result of a crushed animal, like a
> cat
>> or a hedgehogs (the two most common items children are familiar with)
>> 4. A parent are likely to sumond his/her child when something happens.
>> 5. A crushed baby looking like a crushed tomato must appear funny
>> (unexpected) and is in line with many other jokes on the wild side of
> life.
>> I do not suppose that children are familiar with Nestons laws on objects,
>> but they sure can imagine pictures in their own heads...
>>
>>
>> I observed once some girls in 4th grade skipping ropes. They used one
> short
>> rope, one girl swinging it over her head while the others jumped in or
out
>> as they do in "Teddybear, Teddybear". The funny thing was that they had
>> made a song I never had heard before: Helicopter, Helicopter, jump. jump
>> jump, helicopter helcopter come home now, helicopter helicopter hop out
>> now.... (or something like it, I have the text somewhere but cannot get
it
>> right now...)
>> The point is: This was a primary school on an island in Stavanger where
>> most of the men-folk worked offshore on the oil instalations in the
>> Northsea. They have to travel in helicopters no matter how rough the
>> weather. It happened that the helicopters crashed and that people lost
>> their lifes. I figure the kids were examining their fear for what could
>> happen to their fathers on duty on the high seas...
>>
>> The same thing I experienced with an exibition of childrens 3d
>> constructions in the Cultural Center in Stavanger. The motto for the
event
>> was "My father works in oil(bussiness)" Most of the items was
> constructions
>> of oil-rigs and drawings. The interesting things were that the
>> constructions was very detailed, but tecknical details was missing. But
>> there were an overwhelming amount of lifeboats, helicopters, lifefloats
> and
>> supplyships, everything that could bring their parents safe ashore. And
> the
>> drawings gave the same impact, and in addition there were many drawings
of
>> Jesus Christ (as the Saviour) walking on the waves reaching out for the
>> people on the plat-form... You don't have to be a genius to see what the
>> kids were telling...
>>
>> I would be very honoured if you could see that you lend a bit of your
>> consideration to these thoughts as it mean something to me that we can be
>> assured that we understand what kids are telling us when they keep their
>> thoughts to themselves....
>>
>> All the best,
>> Thor G.
>>
>>
>> Original email:
>> -----------------
>> From: Andy ARLEO [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 13:57:13 +0200
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: interpreting smashed tomatoes
>>
>>
>> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this
>> mailing, it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List. If
you
>> want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To line
> of
>> your message.**
>>
>> Thanks, Thor. That smashed tomatoes may be a metaphor for babies/
>> toddlers for some chldren is an interesting proposal, but I often feel
>> that such interpretations lack evidence to back them up. If we were to
>> find texts within and across cultures that support this idea, I would
>> be more convinced. Better yet, we could ask kids themselves for their
>> own interpretations. But even if some kids did explicitly say that
>> they identify tomatoes and toddlers, that would not mean that all kids
>> do. So I see it as a potential metaphor, and now that you've planted
>> it in my brain, it will influence my own future interpretations of
>> "smashed tomatoes." Perhaps a psychoanalytical approach would suggest
>> that it was already there in my unconscious mind waiting for someone
>> like you to bring it to awareness (now how could that be proved or
>> disproved?).
>>
>> The fact that kids like to hear a joke about tomatoes crossing a
>> motorway does not necessarily imply that this "means something else".
>> Simply imagining tomatoes as people (metaphorical thinking) is
>> incongruous and amusing in itself for kids young and old.
>>
>> Cheers, have a pleasant Sunday,
>>
>> andy
>>
>>
>> Le 25 mai 13 à 10:41, [log in to unmask] a écrit :
>>
>>> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this
>>> mailing, it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List.
>>> If you want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the
>>> Reply-To line of your message.**
>>>
>>> Dear all
>>>
>>> Jane Stemp Wickenden ask: What is it with english schoolchildren and
>>> smashed tomatoes??
>>>
>>> Smashed tomatoes translates to babies/toddlers. Children cannot
>>> eksperience
>>> with grown ups beating up children but they can see smashed tomatoes
>>> and
>>> the similarities to blood. Come on ketchup, is a common joke in
>>> kindergartens, perhaps in a global context...
>>>
>>> When 99% of children in a kindergarten demands to tell you this joke
>>> about
>>> the two tomatoes crossing a highly trafficked motorway, it must mean
>>> something else to them then...
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>> Thor G.
>>>
>>>
>>> Original email:
>>> -----------------
>>> From: Andy ARLEO [log in to unmask]
>>> Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 12:44:08 +0200
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: BBC radio 3 program on Frère Jacques - parody
>>> asrequested
>>>
>>>
>>> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this
>>> mailing, it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List.
>>> If you
>>> want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To
>>> line of
>>> your message.**
>>>
>>> great, thanks for these versions!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Message du 23/05/13 19:52
>>>> De : "Jane Stemp Wickenden"
>>>> A : [log in to unmask]
>>>> Copie à :
>>>> Objet : Re: BBC radio 3 program on Frère Jacques - parody as
>>>> requested
>>>>
>>>> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this
>>> mailing, it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List.
>>> If you
>>> want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To
>>> line of
>>> your message.**
>>>> Andy,
>>>>
>>>> Not sure you would want to *hear* me singing it! I suppose it is
>>>> not so
>>> much
>>>> a parody as a song to the same tune, and it is embarrassingly puerile
>>> (well
>>>> I was only 9). The year must have been about 1970, because I recall
>>>> both
>>> my
>>>> brothers joining in, and they're 2 years and 5 years younger than
>>>> me. We
>>>> lived in the south of Surrey, about 20 miles from London.
>>>>
>>>> Ahem...
>>>>
>>>> Squashed tomatoes, squashed tomatoes
>>>> Irish stew, Irish stew
>>>> Soggy semolina, soggy semolina
>>>> I feel sick, I feel sick.
>>>>
>>>> (what is it about the British schoolchild and squashed tomatoes?)
>>>>
>>>> I've just asked my husband, and he remembers a version whose first
>>>> two
>>> lines
>>>> were
>>>>
>>>> Bread and butter, bread and butter
>>>> Spotted dick, spotted dick
>>>>
>>>> - this seems likely to be the original to judge by the matching
>>>> rhymes? It
>>>> was about 1964, and he was living in north-west London.
>>>>
>>>> For the purposes of clarification I should perhaps add that
>>>> "spotted dick"
>>>> is the name for a rolled-up, boiled, suet pudding filled - often
>>>> sparsely
>>> -
>>>> with currants.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jane
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: The Children's Folklore Mailing List
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>>> On Behalf Of Andy ARLEO
>>>> Sent: 23 May 2013 15:11
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: BBC radio 3 program on Frère Jacques
>>>>
>>>> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this
>>> mailing,
>>>> it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List. If you
>>>> want to
>>>> make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To line of
>>>> your
>>>> message.**
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Jane. I would love to hear, or have the words, to your
>>>> parody!
>>>>
>>>> Â
>>>>
>>>> I just got a message from the producer (below), in case you want to
>>>> listen
>>>> to the program in the next week.
>>>>
>>>> Â
>>>>
>>>> cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Â
>>>>
>>>> andy
>>>>
>>>> Â
>>>>
>>>> Dear Andy, Adam and Richard,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> IÂ'm very pleased to let you know that my feature on Â"Frere
>>>> JacquesÂ",
>>> titled
>>>> Â"Are You Sleeping, Brother JohnÂ" will be broadcast TONIGHT
>>>> (Thursday
>>> 23rd
>>>> May) at around 8.15pm UK time on BBC Radio 3, in the interval of
>>>> live in
>>>> concert.
>>>>
>>>> Â
>>>>
>>>> You can listen to it live, anywhere in the world at the BBC Radio 3
>>> homepage
>>>> www.bbc.co.uk/radio3 - and for 7 days after transmission (UK only) at
>>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01sj122
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Message du 21/05/13 22:45
>>>>> De : "Jane Stemp Wickenden"
>>>>> A : [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Copie à :
>>>>> Objet : Re: BBC radio 3 program on Frère Jacques
>>>>>
>>>>> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this
>>>> mailing, it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List.
>>>> If you
>>>> want to make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To
>>>> line
>>> of
>>>> your message.**
>>>>> Well done Andy!
>>>>>
>>>>> My brothers and I drove my mother mad by singing a parody of this
>>>>> in the
>>>>> 1970s...
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is the exact link to the programme:
>>>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01sj122
>>>>>
>>>>> Jane
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jane Stemp
>>>>>
>>>>> Waterbound (Hodder, 1995) / Secret Songs (Hodder, 1997)
>>>>> contributor: The Sixpenny Debt - The Lost College - The Bodleian
>>> Murders -
>>>>> The Midnight Press /& other Oxford stories (2006, 2008, 2010, 2012
>>>>> [forthcoming])
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: The Children's Folklore Mailing List
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>>>>> On Behalf Of Andy ARLEO
>>>>> Sent: 21 May 2013 15:01
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: BBC radio 3 program on Frère Jacques
>>>>>
>>>>> **Please note that if you press the Reply button to respond to this
>>>> mailing,
>>>>> it will be distributed to everyone on the Childlore List. If you
>>>>> want to
>>>>> make a personal reply, you will need to modify the Reply-To line
>>>>> of your
>>>>> message.**
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>
>>>>> Â
>>>>>
>>>>> BBC Radio 3 will be airing a program on Frère Jacques on Thur May
>>>>> 23
>>>> around
>>>>> 8:15pm UK time. Thanks to Julia Bishop, I was contacted and
>>>>> interviewed
>>> by
>>>>> the producer. You can listen to it live at:
>>>>>
>>>>> Â
>>>>>
>>>>> Â www.bbc.co.uk/radio3Â
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
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