Hi Alison, By "goes with the territory" I was just meaning it in the 
truistic sense that for poetry, and poetry translation, lineation is a 
crucial part of composition; whereas I now see you meant by lineation a 
careful correspondance to the lines of the original. I confess that when 
translating I've never felt too fussed about this kind of correspondance, 
except, say, where there's a jarring or marked enjambement or an end-stopped 
line. What does matter though is how it works in English. Interesting that 
Manson sees "a failure of nerve" in failing to keep this line-by-line 
correspondance - which seems a bit hard on himself, when the demands of 
English word-order may often militate against that. I guess we all make up 
our own rules.
   Thanks for the quote - I like 'enduring' that keeps the time-element 
which throughout the poem, with "autrefois" etc., underpins the 'today'. A 
lot better than a whole raft of translations I've just scanned on the 
internet, but to my ear it still sounds a bit cumbersome, where the French 
is anything but, however tricky the syntax is. Perhaps it's my faulty 
French, but 'hante' in the original is surely 'haunts' rather than 'haunted 
by'? But anyway there's something that keeps tripping me up in the original 
between lines 2 and 3 in  this question that ends as an exclamation. I 
should shut up until I've read the book, and the notes!
Jamie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alison Croggon" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2012 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations


Hi Jamie

I don't know whether the concern with lineation necessarily "goes with
the territory". Often translators seem to be very free with lineation!
In any case, Manson says he has tried "wherever possible to keep a
line-by-line correspondence between the English and the French", and
further says that whenever he's changed the sequencing of a group of
lines it "represents a failure of nerve".

The first verse of 'Le vierge, le vivace et le bel aujourd'hui' is rendered:

The virginal, enduring, beautiful today
will a drunken beat of its wing break us
this hard, forgotten lake haunted under frost
by the transparent glacier of unfled flights!

Which pleases me, anyway. A correspondence or music of thought.

xA


On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 8:51 PM, Jamie McKendrick
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Yes with "definite version" I was trying to avoid the idea of a 
> "definitive"
> translation, perhaps a futile and presumptuous aim for any translation, 
> and
> particularly so in the case of a poet such as Mallarmé where the 
> definitions
> of words don't always help with his use and where context can colour them
> very differently.
>  Other poems by Peter Manson use word-fractures and enjambements (more
> radical than "poop /deck" in 'Salut') as a motor force, so I'd expect that
> "particular attention... to lineation". But anyway it goes with the
> territory, no?
>  A propos of definitions, I'm curious as to what he makes of that first 
> line
> 'Le vierge, le vivace et le bel aujourd'hui' which I recently had to
> translate, though merely for a footnote. In most translations 'vivace' is
> translated as if it meant 'vif' or 'animé' - vivid, lively etc. which I
> began to think was missing something. Its use is mostly with plants and
> trees - so more like 'hardy' or 'perennial'...I ended up with 'evergreen'
> which at least has a 'v' in it.
>
> Jamie
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alison Croggon" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2012 7:38 AM
>
> Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>
>
> Hi Jamie - I think the translations have a deal of integrity as poems
> - first time through I just read them as poems, then I read them with
> the footnotes, which was a rewarding way to read it. The book's
> designed so neither choice obtrudes. As I said, I don't think the book
> presents itself as "definitive" translations, but they are most
> certainly poems, and certainly faithful in their own fashion: Peter's
> paid particular attention is to lineation, which is a choice I have
> some sympathy with. Translations that invite that "between" readings
> are, in the end, the most illuminating for me.
>
> xA
>
> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Jamie McKendrick
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> Alison, exemplary or not, and even though I don't quite share your
>> enthusiasm for the translation, Salut's a good example to take and you
>> explain what you like about it. Others I've now seen I prefer and I 
>> should
>> anyway like to see the notes, so I'll certainly get the book.
>>
>>  With a poet such as Mallarme', or Celan, or even Vallejo in Trilce -
>> where,
>> to put it crudely, the ambiguities and obscurities abound, the idea of
>> accompanying notes is an appealing one. Maybe it should be considered as 
>> a
>> more general tactic, to reveal what choices were made and why. Against 
>> the
>> idea is that the apparatus could outweigh the translations and also give
>> the
>> translator a get-out clause for not arriving at a definite version. As
>> Symons says, some of the poems "are written in a language which has
>> nothing
>> in common with every-day language—symbol within symbol, image within
>> image;
>> but symbol and image achieve themselves in expression without seeming to
>> call for the necessity of a key."
>>
>>   At the very least it helps for a poetry translator to take a couple of
>> examples in a foreword and show something of the method.
>>
>>   (Also interested by the Mallarmean Australians you'd rooted out.)
>>
>> Jamie
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alison Croggon" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2012 12:04 AM
>>
>> Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>
>>
>> Thanks for your comment, Jamie - you should buy the book, really. I
>> can't recommend it enough. I suppose I chose Salut as exemplary,
>> rather than another, not only because it was introductory, but because
>> I liked saying it so very much: the rhythms and the dance of it are
>> quite extraordinarily beautiful. Perhaps it might have been better to
>> choose another poem as exemplary, but hey. One has to begin somewhere.
>> There are a lot of poems in this book, and they in fact demonstrate
>> all sorts of different attacks, often inventive and playful, on the
>> problem of translation. There is much more to say about this
>> collection than I could manage in my response, which only scratches
>> the surface.
>>
>> You musn't assume that the translator isn't aware of other
>> possibilities: he's overwhelmingly aware. Peter's very detailed notes
>> do indeed note the alternative meanings of Salut, and its history. And
>> many other fascinating speculations and alternative meanings, which
>> suggest a very careful reading of the French.  I will say that I don't
>> believe Peter is making any large claims for himself as translator: in
>> fact, I was struck by the modesty of his enterprise.
>>
>> As I said, I can't read French: all I can do is try to sound my way
>> through its rhythms and meanings, with a crib at hand. That's all I've
>> ever been able to do with Mallarme. And in the end I can only record
>> my response to these poems in English. This book gave me a great deal
>> of pleasure, and a lively admiration of Mallarme, and for someone like
>> me, I'm not sure what more a translation can do. Perhaps one day I
>> might learn French and find out more: but in the meantime I'm happy to
>> have The Poems in Verse.
>>
>> xA
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 6:27 AM, Jamie McKendrick
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> O I see what you mean - yes, not practical for me either as I'll be
>>> travelling tomorrow.
>>>  I don't think we're really at odds on this question of what I
>>> deliberately,
>>> and as shorthand, called "a deceptively close equivalence", and with my
>>> earlier reference to 'naturalizing', which implies not just the
>>> difference
>>> in how the language works but also rhythm, rhyme itself, and form -
>>> though
>>> these different traditions are not at all hermetically sealed - quite 
>>> the
>>> opposite: Milton deliberately worked (even in Italian) in the Petrarchan
>>> mode, Wordsworth translated Michelangelo, Quevedo's sonnet 'Buscas Roma 
>>> a
>>> Roma !o peregrino!', like Spenser's, is a translation of Du Bellay's
>>> 'Nouveau venu, qui cherches Rome en Rome, which is in turn a translation
>>> from the Sicilian Latinist Ianus Vitalis's sonnet. So each language's
>>> traditions are cross-fertilized to a vast degree.
>>> Fun, it is!
>>>
>>> Jamie
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 8:01 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>
>>>
>>> I meant comparative examples--other translations, not of words but of
>>> poems,
>>> with the French original. Not practical.
>>>
>>> In fact, the two are not equivalent, except in being central to their
>>> traditions. Those traditions are very different. The sonnet is a good
>>> example. If I translate a Spanish sonnet do I do so in iambic 
>>> pentameter?
>>> If
>>> I do, I've automatically invoked our tradition, Shakespeare to Milton to
>>> Wordsworth, but the Spanish is going back to Quevedo. If I translate it
>>> in
>>> the nothing but syllable count of the Spanish it looks like I did it
>>> wrong.
>>> The point being that what's central to the tradition carries te 
>>> tradition
>>> with it even when it's counterproductive.
>>>
>>>
>>> Isn't translating fun?
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Sent: Oct 19, 2012 1:57 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>>
>>>> True, but Petrarch is a daunting challenge to any translator, and you
>>>> could
>>>> probably find no shortage of ghastly failures among translations of
>>>> both.
>>>> Indeed alexandrines don't ("remotely sound like pentameter"); that
>>>> wasn't
>>>> what I was saying: by a "deceptively close equivalent" I wasn't
>>>> referring
>>>> to
>>>> their sound but to their centrality within the respective traditions.
>>>> Manson's note on the blog is very acute about, for instance, the effect
>>>> of
>>>> the 'e muet' being sounded in a particular verse (shifting the count
>>>> from
>>>> 8
>>>> to 12) and about the superficial resemblance between the two lines, so
>>>> the
>>>> question of metre has obviously occupied him.
>>>> And yes, there's not much further we can go with this without 
>>>> examples -
>>>> though I have tried to give a couple.
>>>> Jamie
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Weiss" 
>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 6:36 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But hey weren't translating Mallarme.
>>>>
>>>> And alexandrines don't remotely sound like pentameter. Regular lign
>>>> length
>>>> sounds like regular line length.
>>>>
>>>> Let's agree to disagree. I'm away from my books, including Peter's, but
>>>> the
>>>> only way to make this a useful discussion would be to haul out examples
>>>> and
>>>> see what the compromises are.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Sent: Oct 19, 2012 1:15 PM
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course Mallarme' doesn't use iambics or the pentametre, French 
>>>>> isn't
>>>>> stressed - and he's using in this instance the alexandrine for which
>>>>> the
>>>>> pentametre, as Manson is very aware, is a deceptively close 
>>>>> equivalent.
>>>>> It's
>>>>> a kind of 'naturalizing' that can happen in translation - as you say
>>>>> "to
>>>>> suggest the formalism of the original".
>>>>>  Still, we obviously don't agree on this point. I say difficult, you
>>>>> say
>>>>> impossible.
>>>>>  Maybe before Wyatt's rhymed and (idiosyncratically metered) 'My 
>>>>> galley
>>>>> charged with forgetfulness' was done, Petrarch's 'Passa la nave mia
>>>>> colma
>>>>> d'oblio' would have seemed well nigh impossible to translate? Otr 
>>>>> maybe
>>>>> not,
>>>>> as the Tudors wouldn't have seen rhyme as such an insurmountable
>>>>> obstacle.
>>>>> Jamie
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Weiss"
>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 5:57 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Using a degree of regularity to suggest the formalism of the original
>>>>> is
>>>>> a
>>>>> very different matter. And of course Mallarme didn't write pentameter
>>>>> or
>>>>> iambs. I'll stick with unequivocal. But chiefly about rhyme. Or
>>>>> rhyme-and-meter.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> Sent: Oct 19, 2012 12:46 PM
>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Though the complexity of the original is not in question, I don't see
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> you can be so unequivocal. Peter Manson, in another note to the
>>>>>> translation
>>>>>> which I've just found on Jerome Rothenburg's blog, sounds a more
>>>>>> cautious
>>>>>> note, saying that for Mallarme' the rhymes were essential, but for 
>>>>>> him
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> would not be. Fair enough. As regards metre, one of his translations
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> 'The Jinx', which I think very skillful - actually cleaves closely to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> pentametre - just to take a few lines at random:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Their unmaking is in the hands of a potent angel,
>>>>>> his naked sword erect on the horizon:
>>>>>> a purple clot occludes the grateful breast.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They suck on pain as once they milked the dream:
>>>>>> when they give rhythmic form to carnal tears,
>>>>>> the people kneel down and their mother rises.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These ones are comforted, secure, majestic;
>>>>>> but a hundred jeered-at brothers dog their steps,
>>>>>> ignoble martyrs to contorted chance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Only the first and penultimate quoted lines, are not pentametric,
>>>>>> allowing
>>>>>> for the usual variations of stress, and most very decidedly so.) The
>>>>>> metre
>>>>>> here doesn't seem at all to have been an artificial limitation, 
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> opposite. Rhyme is always going to offer further difficulties to the
>>>>>> translator, but difficulties can be challenges.
>>>>>> Jamie
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Weiss"
>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 5:31 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On this I can be unequivocal: a rhymed metered translation of 
>>>>>> Mallarme
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> remotely resembles the original is impossible. He's simply too 
>>>>>> complex
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> render with any artful or artificial limitations on choice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's another test. I read Mallarme in French. It's very difficult
>>>>>> French,
>>>>>> even for literate native French readers. That difficulty is an
>>>>>> essential
>>>>>> part of the experience of the poems and of the aesthetic behind them.
>>>>>> A
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> translation helps the reader of the poem, not as a trot, but because
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> dialogue takes place at the level of the difficulty--we puzzle it out
>>>>>> together, we question together. Most translations of Mallarme simply
>>>>>> make
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> want to throw the book at the wall.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> Sent: Oct 19, 2012 12:03 PM
>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> '"Closeness" doesn't mean a trot.' - Mark, you may have 
>>>>>>> misunderstood
>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>> wasn't me who introduced the idea of closeness, nor was it me
>>>>>>> suggesting
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> was a necessarily desirable quality. And I'm quite able to
>>>>>>> differentiate
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> lexical - word-for-word - 'closeness'  from a closeness of 'effect'
>>>>>>> (which
>>>>>>> was what you and Alison claimed for the translations).
>>>>>>> I have checked out quite a few Mallarme' translations, rhymed and
>>>>>>> unrhymed
>>>>>>> as well as plain prose.
>>>>>>> Alison quotes Manson's afterword: "‘These translations were done in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> conviction that a translation of Mallarmé should at least be allowed
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> sound like interesting modern poetry, and that the … use of rhyme 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> regular metre is one of the surest ways of forbidding that from
>>>>>>> happening’.
>>>>>>> Instead, he has given us ‘unashamedly semantic translations of a 
>>>>>>> poet
>>>>>>> whose
>>>>>>> best writing seems designed to put a semantic translator to shame.’"
>>>>>>> His first aim to "sound like interesting modern poetry" seems to me
>>>>>>> unexceptionable - surely it's what we all try to do. His second 
>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> rhyme and metre is questionable - surely it depends on how well 
>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> managed. And his his claim to be making "unashamedly semantic
>>>>>>> translations"
>>>>>>> (with its elegant qualification) would seem at least to licence the
>>>>>>> question
>>>>>>> I asked.
>>>>>>> Jamie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Weiss"
>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 4:18 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Closeness" doesn't mean a trot. The job of a poem is to be a poem.
>>>>>>> Word
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> word exactitude, if it were possible, would be pretty far from close
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> result couldn't be read as a poem. A poem, natch, that suggests the
>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> original is a poem. Which Peter does. Check out any of the rhymed
>>>>>>> versions
>>>>>>> out there for teir closeness/distance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Oct 19, 2012 10:41 AM
>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Mark, yes Mallarme' certainly maximizes on potential meanings,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> translator often enough you have to choose sometimes only the one
>>>>>>>> impoverished option. Though there are sometimes ways of suggesting
>>>>>>>> what's
>>>>>>>> lost. In this case 'Greeting' is certainly an option, but 
>>>>>>>> 'benison'?
>>>>>>>>   What made me question the idea of the translations being "as 
>>>>>>>> close
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> non-Francophone reader is likely to get" was that, of course,
>>>>>>>> there's
>>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>>> the possibility of something closer, but more significantly that
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> 'Salut' - and not necessarily to its discredit - didn't look as if
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> particularly aiming for 'closeness'.
>>>>>>>> (As for me, I'm only sort of semi-francophone - I can read French 
>>>>>>>> ok
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> Mallarme' often goes beyond my limits.)
>>>>>>>>  Anyway, I look forward to reading the book,
>>>>>>>> Jamie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Weiss"
>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 3:17 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's the usual problem with translation. As a poet whose poem I had
>>>>>>>> translated from the Spanish pointed out to me once, "by x I meant
>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>> y
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> z--but I know that in English you have to choose." And Mallarme
>>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>>> intends every possible meaning. As you point out, one can make a
>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>> for either choice, but the French is better.
>>>>>>>> Do a quick comparison with other translations of say l'apres-midi"
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> "Le
>>>>>>>> vierge le vivace..." You'll find lots of other choices at each
>>>>>>>> juncture.
>>>>>>>> But
>>>>>>>> Alison is I think precisely right--this is as close as a
>>>>>>>> non-francophone
>>>>>>>> reader is likely to get. And for the francophone the translations
>>>>>>>> create
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> dialogue like yours with the original. Finally, a translation is a
>>>>>>>> reading
>>>>>>>> of the poem, valuable as such but contestable.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Oct 19, 2012 7:43 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Alison, sorry to catch this thread after it's already expired,
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> good to read an appreciative review of a poetry translation that
>>>>>>>>> pays
>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>> close attention to what the translator is doing. Most often the
>>>>>>>>> translator
>>>>>>>>> is made invisible by reviewers or if visible only to be subjected
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>> onslaught of nit-picking. I hope it won't look like I'm indulging
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> same but Manson's version of 'Salut' doesn't look to me "as close
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>> get to experiencing the intoxicating fascination of Mallarmé's
>>>>>>>>> work".
>>>>>>>>> Translating the title 'Salut' as 'Greeting' rather than, say
>>>>>>>>> 'Toast'
>>>>>>>>> already
>>>>>>>>> loses a primary sense and context. (I'm sure Manson knows this, 
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> maybe
>>>>>>>>> the accompanying notes enlarge on the question.) When Mallarmé
>>>>>>>>> repeats
>>>>>>>>> 'salut' later, Manson uses 'benison' which is archaic and
>>>>>>>>> religiose,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>>>> have thought moves the poem in awrong direction (whereas other
>>>>>>>>> twists
>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>> 'showboating', I agree, are playful and inventive). The play on 
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> 'coupe - 'la coupe de champagne'? -  with its foam (écume) which
>>>>>>>>> links
>>>>>>>>> cup
>>>>>>>>> to boat and then opens up the sea and sail imagery with which the
>>>>>>>>> poem
>>>>>>>>> ends
>>>>>>>>> is far harder to trace or even guess at in the translation. It's a
>>>>>>>>> tricky
>>>>>>>>> question because the poem has a well-known history and was first
>>>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> dinner to fete the poet, but also used as an introductory poem for
>>>>>>>>> editions
>>>>>>>>> of his work. Perhaps Manson is following Marchal here who sees
>>>>>>>>> Mallarmé
>>>>>>>>> moving away from actual circumstance to "the poetic": "'Salut'
>>>>>>>>> n'est
>>>>>>>>> plus
>>>>>>>>> un 'Toast' porté au septième banquet de La Plume, mais un salut
>>>>>>>>> initial
>>>>>>>>> au
>>>>>>>>> lecteur, et une dédicace de l'oeuvre." Roger Pearson argues with
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> "not strictly true.because. 'Bibliographie' carefully added by
>>>>>>>>> Mallarmé
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> the end of Poésies precisely reminds us of its textual history and
>>>>>>>>> implicitly invites us to note and explore the relationship between
>>>>>>>>> circumstance and finished poem." Though the
>>>>>>>>>  translation certainly has merits it seems to have effaced much of
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> history and, on the level of word-choice and imagery, it left me
>>>>>>>>> somewhat
>>>>>>>>> stranded. That said, anyone prepared to grapple with the
>>>>>>>>> complexities
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> Mallarmé deserves a warm Salut.
>>>>>>>>> Jamie
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alison Croggon"
>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 6:27 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Peter Manson's Mallarme translations
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Belatedly reviewed for Overland Journal:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://overland.org.au/blogs/poetry-fiction-reviews/2012/10/and-what-an-ear-on-mansons-mallarme/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> xA
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Editor, Masthead:  http://www.masthead.net.au
>>>>>>>>>> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com
>>>>>>>>>> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Editor, Masthead:  http://www.masthead.net.au
>> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com
>> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com
>
>
>
>
> --
> Editor, Masthead:  http://www.masthead.net.au
> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com
> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com



-- 
Editor, Masthead:  http://www.masthead.net.au
Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com
Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com