Just as we take the time to teach students how to use the dictionary, we should teach them how to use new tools. And if we want to pick anything to teach undergrads that will be relevant in their future lives, dealing with "information overload" would be a pretty useful pick:-) 

But seriously. Certainly it is not surprising that someone who was trained in the old ways will happily return to how she always worked. It must also be admitted that for Latinists there exists, in the OLD, a paper dictionary that is usable (layout far better than that of the LSJ) and superior to the dictionaries that are available in electronic form. But on the Greek side, I definitely do not have the same experience. Of course, I do direct my students to my local version of the word study tool:-) Oh, and another thing. Greek morphology remains an issue for students past the first year, which should not be the case for Latin. So there are objective reasons why my Greek students behave quite differently:-) 



On Jul 18, 2012, at 5:40 AM, Francese, Christopher wrote:

> I happened to met a Latin student this week, an attorney who is retraining after thirty years to become a Latin teacher, working mostly independently to relearn Latin, essentially from scratch. She said she started trying to use the Word Study Tool, but quickly gave up and went back to her dictionary. From the unscientific sample of students I have talked to, this is quite typical. If you don't really need it--if your philological skill, level of motivation, and love of technology are sufficient--it's fine. But the large majority of Latin learners walk away in bewilderment. Again, this is not to denigrate the massive achievements of Perseus as a whole over the years, just to ask the question about what we ultimately need, from the user's point of view. 
> 
> From a teacher's point of view, the issue of too much information is a real one, because a) students can only process so much and need a filter/guidance, b) one wants to create some distance between the learner and the correct answer (but not too much), c) the information given should ideally fit in with and reinforce some kind of coherent pedagogy. This part of Perseus clearly seems directed at the lower-intermediate students, so we should keep our eyes on their needs.
> 
> What we're really talking about is annotation of texts, so the problem of what to include in an annotation directed at a certain level is in principle no different in print and in the digital environment. One should ask the same critical questions of classical commentary in print.
> 
> Thanks all for continuing this conversation.
> --Chris
> 
> 
> Christopher Francese
> Professor of Classical Studies
> Dickinson College
> Carlisle, PA 17013
> (717) 245-1202
> [log in to unmask]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Date:    Mon, 16 Jul 2012 17:52:07 -0500
> From:    Helma Dik <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Perseus and classics DH
> 
> I mostly agree with this, although you'd be surprised to see how much is
> still on the table even if the correct parses are there (in the Treebank,
> of course, those parses are there); and even if there is a dependency tree.
> 
> In teaching texts at the intermediate level, fifteen years ago a student
> might come to class and say, 'I could not translate this sentence, because
> I could not parse word X'. This is (in the typical case) no longer true. At
> home they can find out what a likely parse is for the word, and concentrate
> their efforts on how the sentences go together. Reading Sophocles for the
> first time, even if the forms are spelled out, is still a challenge for
> many. But at least everybody can attempt to construe the Greek, regardless
> of whether the particular verb form is in 'tutti verbi greci', which
> thankfully is no longer needed as a resource.
> 
> In the rare case that Perseus gets something wrong, like with κέκλεικε that
> someone asked about on Classics-L yesterday, students may need to be
> reminded that their basic rules of Greek morphology are still valid.. in
> other words, like anything else, the resource needs to be used with a bit
> of critical judgment..
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 5:22 PM, John Palmer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> As an undergraduate of fifty years ago, and a current user of Perseus, I
>> think Henry Lynam (today) has it right.  The skill of reading Greek
>> includes deciding from context which of the possible interpretations of
>> a word is the appropriate one.  If the system takes this decision away
>> from the user, he loses the need to acquire this skill.  Down with
>> dumbing down.
>> --
>> John Palmer
>> Preston near Weymouth, Dorset, England
>> e-mail:  [log in to unmask] (plain text preferred)
>> website: http://www.palmyra.me.uk/
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Helma Dik
> Department of Classics
> University of Chicago
> 2012-2013:
> American School of Classical Studies at Athens
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date:    Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:37:23 -0400
> From:    Hugh Cayless <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Fwd: Study on career preparation in humanities graduate programs
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
>> From: Katina Rogers <[log in to unmask]>
>> Date: July 16, 2012 5:34:35 PM EDT
>> 
>> Dear Colleague,
>> 
>> Many thanks for contributing to the database of individuals on alternative academic career paths! As you know, the database is part of a suite a of activities related to graduate education reform that the the Scholarly Communication Institute is running this year with support from the Mellon Foundation:
>> 
>> http://uvasci.org/current-work/
>> 
>> The two surveys described below are meant to help us move from anecdote to data in conversations about humanities grad training nationwide -- with particular emphasis on alternative academic careers, or hybrid and non-professorial roles for liberal arts PhDs in and around the academy. Links are provided at the end of the announcement, below.
>> 
>> If you haven't already done so, please help us out by taking the employer and/or employee surveys if they apply to you, and by circulating the call through your networks! We would especially appreciate your help in helping to share the survey links beyond Twitter -- for instance, on relevant email distribution lists, among your colleagues, or by posting a link to your website. Please feel free to circulate the text below to any potentially interested groups.
>> 
>> Thank you again for helping us to advance this conversation.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> Katina Rogers
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> *Note: This is the only email you'll receive about the project, and we won't use your email address for anything else. As a reminder, your email address is not publicly visible in the database. The surveys below are completely anonymous and confidential.
>> 
>> 
>> ---
>> 
>> The Scholarly Communication Institute (http://uvasci.org/) is conducting a study on career preparation in humanities graduate programs. As part of this study, we are administering two confidential surveys: the first is for people on alternative academic career paths (that is, people with graduate training in the humanities and allied fields working beyond the professoriate); the second is for their employers. The study focuses on graduate education practices in North America, but we welcome all participants. The surveys will be open until October 1, 2012.
>> 
>> Humanities scholars come from a wide array of backgrounds and embark on a variety of careers in areas like libraries, museums, archives, higher education and humanities administration, publishing, research and technology, and more. SCI anticipates that data collected during the study will contribute to a deeper understanding of the diversity of career paths that humanities scholars pursue after their graduate studies, while also highlighting opportunities to better prepare students for a range of careers beyond the tenure track.
>> 
>> The study complements the public database that SCI recently created as a way to clarify the breadth of the field, and to foster community among a diverse group (available at http://altacademy.wufoo.com/reports/who-we-are/).
>> 
>> Both the database and the surveys are being administered by Dr. Katina Rogers as part of SCI's current phase of work -- which includes a close concentration on graduate education reform and the preparation of future knowledge workers, educators, and cultural heritage and scholarly communications professionals.
>> 
>> The survey results will help us to make curriculum recommendations so that graduate programs may better serve future students, and anonymized or summarized data will be made available at at a later date via http://uvasci.org. Please contact Katina at [log in to unmask] if you’d like to know more.
>> 
>>     •       Complete the main survey here: http://alt-academy.questionpro.com/
>>     •       If you supervise someone with a humanities graduate degree, complete the brief employer survey: http://alt-academy.employers.questionpro.com/
>> 
>> Thank you in advance for your time and support on this project.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Katina Rogers, Ph.D.
>> Senior Research Specialist
>> Scholarly Communication Institute
>> uvasci.org | [log in to unmask]
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Katina Rogers, Ph.D.
>> Senior Research Specialist
>> Scholarly Communication Institute
>> uvasci.org | [log in to unmask]
>> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date:    Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:30:35 -0500
> From:    Tom Elliott <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Fwd: Study on career preparation in humanities graduate programs
> 
> Thanks Hugh for pointing this out.
> 
> All: FWIW, the main survey was, in my experience, about a 10-15 minute
> commitment, though I did not tarry long over the "explain/elaborate"
> answer boxes.
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> --
> Tom Elliott, Ph.D.
> Associate Director for Digital Programs
> Senior Research Scholar
> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World
> New York University
> 
> http://isaw.nyu.edu/people/staff/tom-elliott/
> 
> Want to talk or meet? Please suggest a date and time via
> http://www.doodle.com/paregorios
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/16/12 7:37 PM, Hugh Cayless wrote:
>> Begin forwarded message:
>> 
>>> *From: *Katina Rogers <[log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>> *Date: *July 16, 2012 5:34:35 PM EDT
>>> *
>>> *
>>> Dear Colleague,
>>> 
>>> Many thanks for contributing to the database of individuals on
>>> alternative academic career paths! As you know, the database is part
>>> of a suite a of activities related to graduate education reform that
>>> the the Scholarly Communication Institute is running this year with
>>> support from the Mellon Foundation:
>>> 
>>>   http://uvasci.org/current-work/
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The two surveys described below are meant to help us move from
>>> anecdote to data in conversations about humanities grad training
>>> nationwide -- with particular emphasis on alternative academic
>>> careers, or hybrid and non-professorial roles for liberal arts PhDs in
>>> and around the academy. Links are provided at the end of the
>>> announcement, below.
>>> 
>>> If you haven't already done so, *please help us out by taking the
>>> employer and/or employee surveys if they apply to you, and by
>>> circulating the call through your networks!* We would especially
>>> appreciate your help in helping to share the survey links beyond
>>> Twitter -- for instance, on relevant email distribution lists, among
>>> your colleagues, or by posting a link to your website. Please feel
>>> free to circulate the text below to any potentially interested groups.
>>> 
>>> Thank you again for helping us to advance this conversation.
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> Katina Rogers
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> *Note: This is the only email you'll receive about the project, and we
>>> won't use your email address for anything else. As a reminder, your
>>> email address is not publicly visible in the database. The surveys
>>> below are completely anonymous and confidential.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> 
>>> The Scholarly Communication Institute (http://uvasci.org/) is
>>> conducting a study on career preparation in humanities graduate
>>> programs. As part of this study, we are administering two confidential
>>> surveys: the first is for people on alternative academic career paths
>>> (that is, people with graduate training in the humanities and allied
>>> fields working beyond the professoriate); the second is for their
>>> employers. The study focuses on graduate education practices in North
>>> America, but we welcome all participants. The surveys will be open
>>> until October 1, 2012.
>>> 
>>> Humanities scholars come from a wide array of backgrounds and embark
>>> on a variety of careers in areas like libraries, museums, archives,
>>> higher education and humanities administration, publishing, research
>>> and technology, and more. SCI anticipates that data collected during
>>> the study will contribute to a deeper understanding of the diversity
>>> of career paths that humanities scholars pursue after their graduate
>>> studies, while also highlighting opportunities to better prepare
>>> students for a range of careers beyond the tenure track.
>>> 
>>> The study complements the public database that SCI recently created as
>>> a way to clarify the breadth of the field, and to foster community
>>> among a diverse group (available at
>>> http://altacademy.wufoo.com/reports/who-we-are/).
>>> 
>>> Both the database and the surveys are being administered by Dr. Katina
>>> Rogers as part of SCI's current phase of work -- which includes a
>>> close concentration on graduate education reform and the preparation
>>> of future knowledge workers, educators, and cultural heritage and
>>> scholarly communications professionals.
>>> 
>>> The survey results will help us to make curriculum recommendations so
>>> that graduate programs may better serve future students, and
>>> anonymized or summarized data will be made available at at a later
>>> date via http://uvasci.org <http://uvasci.org/>. Please contact Katina
>>> at [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> if
>>> you’d like to know more.
>>> 
>>> •Complete the main survey here: http://alt-academy.questionpro.com/
>>> •If you supervise someone with a humanities graduate degree, complete
>>> the brief employer survey: http://alt-academy.employers.questionpro.com/
>>> 
>>> Thank you in advance for your time and support on this project.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> *Katina Rogers, Ph.D.*
>>> Senior Research Specialist
>>> Scholarly Communication Institute
>>> uvasci.org <http://uvasci.org/> | [log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> *Katina Rogers, Ph.D.*
>>> Senior Research Specialist
>>> Scholarly Communication Institute
>>> uvasci.org <http://uvasci.org/> | [log in to unmask]
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>> 
>> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date:    Tue, 17 Jul 2012 17:00:58 +0100
> From:    Gregory Crane <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Distributed Contributions to Open Collections
> 
> Last week Chris Francese led some very constructive discussions about how and why we need to improve the automatically generated morphological analyses of Latin available. This was helpful to those of us working at Perseus because we have been struggling with how to support decentralized improvements and contributions, not just to Perseus, but to the growing number of collections with Creative Commons licenses that support re-use and new derivative works.
> 
> We have posted two blog entries to describe some of our thinking.
> 
> 1) http://sites.tufts.edu/perseusupdates/2012/07/17/sdl-cfp-draft/ -- This is a draft for a possible Call for Participation to the long-planned Scaife Digital Library, essentially the aggregation of CC-licensed materials on the Greco-Roman world.
> 
> The problem that we face is that EVERYTHING can be improved or augmented. What is the starting point? The discussion about morphology was helpful not only because the morphology needs work but because it was a strong statement that morphology should be high on the list.
> 
> What else needs to be done? We need textual notes, translations, commentaries, and a whole range of machine actionable annotations. What is the logical starting point?
> 
> 2) http://sites.tufts.edu/perseusupdates/2012/07/17/dighumtec/ -- This describes very current work using the Son of Suda Online (SoSOL) distributed editing platform developed by Papyri.info as a starting point for more general decentralized editing. Work underway includes (1) generalizing to other subsets of the TEI besides epiDoc (e.g., TEI-A developed by the Nebraska Abbott project), (2) integration with the Center for Hellenic Studies' CTS/CITE architecture, and (ultimately) scaling up to many languages and hundreds and thousands of contributors.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of DIGITALCLASSICIST Digest - 16 Jul 2012 to 17 Jul 2012 (#2012-93)
> ***********************************************************************