Tyagi Nagasiva doth schreibble :
>
> I'm not sure you address my primary point, which is that what you've
> described uses but *is cut completely free from astronomy*. That is,
> I was saying it was completely understandable why there would be
> criticism, why it would be drawn, and severe, when the original
> system (real astrology) makes use of the actual constellations,
> but its modern version does not.

This is the point where you (and the Siderealists) lose me every time,
Nagasiva.

I'm working within an astronomical system that extends back a
couple of thousand years (at least since Ptolemy fixed the beginning
of the Zodiac at 0 Degrees Aries in relation to the Spring Equinox
in his *Almagest*), the same system employed by the grimoires with
regards to astral magic, and a system that continues to compile
extensive Ephemerides delineating the positions of the Sun and the
Planets and the Stars along the Ecliptic throughout the course of
the year, using the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn as the frame
/instead of/ the Constellations.

I can go outside of an evening with a telescope and/or a sextant and
locate any of these bodies - Planets or Fixed Stars - using these
Tables.

I freely admit that Tropical differs from Sidereal, but in what way is
the Tropical system "cut completely free from astronomy"?

> I think i also missed your point in including these [Elemental
> /Humoral / Alchemical material - KC]. Are you saying that you think
> that what was described in a literal sense as 'constructing the
> Philosopher's Stone' or 'turning Lead into Gold' was or is a LITERAL
> process?
>
> Are you aware of experiments conducted to confirm (and failing)
> alchemical experiments? Were they all done by inept magicians, or
> unbelievers?
> I'm taking wild stabs in the dark about your implications here. Help
> me out.
> Since I *do* class alchemy as a type of magic but do not find
> astrology qualifies please excuse my weighting on this matter with
> queries here.

Perhaps you are aware of historical accounts of *successful*
transmutations but, if not, here is a link :

*The Alchemists, Founders of Modern Chemistry*
by Francis Sherwood Taylor, page 180.
(Preview @GoogleBooks)
http://tinyurl.com/7crg7ds

See also:

*An Investigation on the Activity Pattern of Alchemical Transmutations*
by Joaquin Perez-Pariente (.PDF)
@ScientificExplanation.org
http://tinyurl.com/44ewr36

And for a couple of examples of Alchemical texts in which the Daemonic
and Astrological elements are strikingly obvious, see:

Barbara Obrist ~ *Constantine of Pisa : The Book of the Secrets of
Alchemy*, 1990.

Helmut Birkhan ~ *Die Alchemistiche Lehrdichtung des Gratheus Filius
Philisophi in Codex Vindobonensis 2372*, 1992.

The Astrologer Julian of Laodicea has a chapter on ensouling images with
daemons in Rhetorius of Egypt's *Thesaurus*, in which he writes:

"Again, if the gods (i.e., the /daemones/) are of the Air, the
Vernal[Spring] Quadrant [East] is to be observed; if of [fiery] heaven,
the Summer Quadrant [South]; if of the Earth, the Autumnal Quadrant
[West]; and if of pools or seas, the Winter Quadrant [North]."

~ from:

"From Hermes to Jabir and the /Book of the Cow/" by David Pingree,
in :

*Magic and the Classical Tradition*, page 21.
Edited by Charles Burnett and W.F. Ryan, 2006.

For an introduction to Astrological/Alchemical/Medical/&tc. Music, see :

The Mystery of the Seven Vowels : In Theory and Practice*
by Joscelyn Godwin
(Preview @GoogleBooks)
http://tinyurl.com/7as95d6

*Harmonies of Heaven and Earth : Mysticism in Music from Antiquity to
the Avant-Garde*
by Joscelyn Godwin
(Preview @GoogleBooks)

*Greek Esoteric Music Theory Charts*
by John Opsopaus/Bruce McLennan
http://tinyurl.com/486x5oh

*Using Ancient Greek Music for the Care of the Soul*
by John Opsopaus/Bruce McLennan
http://tinyurl.com/7jnzcal

For an introduction to Astrological/Alchemical/Magical/&tc.
Architecture, see :

*Pythagorean Palaces: Magic and Architecture in the Italian Renaissance*
by George L. Hersey, 1976.

For an introduction to Astrological/Magical/Alchemical/&tc. Medicine,
see :

*Kabbalah, Magic, and Science: The Cultural Universe of a Sixteenth
Century Jewish Physician*
by David B. Ruderman, 1988.
(Preview @GoogleBooks)
http://tinyurl.com/7moep99

*Hippocrates' Latin American Legacy: Humoral Medicine in the New World*,
by George McClelland Foster, 1993.

*Ritual Medical Lore of Sephardic Women: Sweetening the Spirits, Healing
the Sick* by Isaac Jack Levy & Rosemary Levy Zumwalt, 2002.
(Preview @GoogleBooks)
http://tinyurl.com/cels8cn

The same Stoic Physics that informs pre-1700s Astrology also informs /
provides the basis of pre-1700s Alchemy, Music, Architecture, Medicine,
&tc. All of these disciplines are inextricably bound together in
period, and they all proceed from the same underlying philosophy of
Nature.

This system only begins to unravel in the late 1700s, coming completely
undone with the productions of the fringe Masons (Golden Dawn, &tc.) in
the 1800s.

I am a practicing Alchemist as well as a practicing Astrological
Magician / Daemonic Astrologer. Again, not 'psychological' or Jungian -
I actually work with furnaces and crucibles and glassware and Geiger
counters, &tc. So, most definitely 'literal', and definitely in the
minority in a field still largely occupied and defined by Jungians.

I'm also a regular attendee of/contributor at the Ashokan Bladesmithing
Conferences <and hope that they will return soon>, particularly those
Cons where folks smelt ore they have collected and make steel.

If you will permit me to draw an analogy here - I know a lot of folks
that still fail to make Wootz steel in despite of their claims to have
followed various procedures described in ancient texts, and I would
argue that their failures are technical and a matter of ineptitude
rather than a matter of 'unbelief'. And I am delighted that we have
folks in the Academy such as Principe and Newman who are actually
reproducing some of the experiments of Alchemists such as Starkey and
Newton in their labs. I think that takes guts and skill, in equal
measure.

By-the-way, transmutation of one element into another was demonstrated
by Frederick Soddy back in 1901 EV. I recollect that Ernest Rutherford
strenuously discouraged his use of the term : "For Mike's sake, Soddy -
don't call it transmutation! They'll have our heads off as alchemists!"

You can see how the Elemental / Humoural system that underlies Alchemy,
Astrology, Music, and Medicine, &tc., is extended into the Twelve Signs
of the Tropical Zodiac here:

*The Twelve Signs of the Zodiac*
@ Lullian Arts.net
http://tinyurl.com/7sj7w6b

 From the above you can see how the Signs are further divided into three
parts, each allotted ten Degrees. These are the Decans, and there are 36
of them all told.

And nested within the Elemental and Planetary Cycle of the 36 Decans is
the Cycle of the Planetary Hours :

" The idea that the Planets and the Fixed Stars rule over the affairs
of the material world was an ancient dogma which had received the
sanction of the foremost Astronomer recognized in the Middle Ages,
Ptolemy.

The influence of his exposition had made itself felt in Jewish thought
even before his *Tetrabiblos* reached Western Europe in Latin
translation during the twelfth century.

Eleazar of Worms, who could not have been directly acquainted with the
astronomer's work, advanced his explanation that the properties and
powers of the heavenly bodies were consequent upon their composition
out of one or more of the Four Elements, Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and
their possession of one or more of the Four Elemental Properties
[Qualities], Hot, Cold, Dry and Moist.

< note : see my previous posts and links re: Ramon Lull's
*Book of the Seven Planets* >.

But these theoretical considerations were of secondary import; the
human utility of Astrology occupied the major part of Jewish interest
and attention.

The Planets and the Stars were studied with an eye to their expediency
in various divinatory exercises : Genethliology, or the casting of
Nativities for beginning contemplated enterprises; and the so-called
Judicial Astrology, obtaining answers to specific questions.

To these ends tables were set up delineating the fields of influence of
the heavenly bodies.

Saturn governed poverty, wounds, illness, death;

Jupiter, life, peace, joy, wealth, honor, sovereignty;

Mars, blood, the sword, evil, war, enmity, envy, destruction;

Venus, grace, beauty, passion, conception, fertility;

Mercury, wisdom, intelligence, learning, trades and occupations;

the Sun, daily activities, and sovereignty;

the Moon, growth and decay, good and evil.

Then there were more detailed tables, giving the Planets and Stars
which rule each Hour of the Day and Night and the Nativities and
Elections of these Hours, on this order :

[ table missing - here is a link to a more comprehensive version of the
table in Trachtenberg that I composed for my students awhile back :

http://tinyurl.com/cxuccf ]

Nativities were also taken according to the Day of the Week. While this
was not strictly approved Astrological method, the Latin names of the
Days, paronyms of the Planets, led to the Days being credited with the
Virtues of the Stars.

Jews never adopted the Weekday names in use in Europe, but for
Astrological [and Kabbalistic / Magical] purposes they accepted the
Planetary associations. "

~ from :

*Jewish Magic and Superstition*
by Joshua Trachtenberg, page 250
(Read / Download @GoogleBooks)
http://tinyurl.com/c8n5lc

Trachtenberg got this last bit wrong - the assignment of Planets to the
Weekdays grows out of the distribution of Planetary Dignities to the
Hours and the Decans :

"Originally, the Decanates were considered phases (or "faces") of each
Sign which were ruled by individual Planets.

How these Rulerships were determined can be seen by the Planetary order
which repeats to obtain them :

Saturn,
Jupiter,
Mars,
Sun,
Venus,
Mercury,
Moon.

This Planetary order, in which the Sun stands at the center of the
continuum, with the Planets between the Sun and the Earth on one side
and the outer Planets on the other side, reflected the perception of
the speed of each Planet's motion as seen from the Earth.

They are the least important of the Essential Dignities, representing
about one-fifteenth of a Planet's overall strength in Medieval
Astrology."

~ from :

Table of Faces (or Decanates)
"The Faces of the Planets"
(Lilly)
*Decans*
/From Wikipedia/
http://tinyurl.com/ca3tp2

Note the order of the Planets as you move down the signs of the Zodiac
in the table at the link above :

Sun
Moon
Mars
Mercury
Jupiter
Venus
Saturn

That's right - it is the order of the Weekdays.

Now take another look at my table showing the order of the Planetary
Hours :

http://tinyurl.com/cxuccf

Scrolling down, you have the order of the Planets according to their
perceived distance from the Earth, and scrolling across in the first
Hour of each Day, you have the Planet that rules ( and gives its name
to ) that Day.

And that is how the Days of the Week got their names!

You can see how the System of Elements and Qualities is applied to the
Seven Planets here:

*The Seven Planets*
@ Lullian Arts.net
http://tinyurl.com/8xotbw6

[ And you can get some idea of how the Elements and Qualities of the
Fixed Stars within the Constellations of the Zodiac are derived in the
text below :

"Chapter IX : The Influence of the Fixed Stars"
~  from: Ptolemy's *Tetrabiblos*
@Sacred-Texts.com
http://tinyurl.com/blj3r7m ]

Sir Edward Kelley even went so far as to describe Alchemy as
"Terrestrial Astronomy" - see :

*The Theatre of Terrestrial Astronomy*
@Levity.com
http://tinyurl.com/3cw42n

Here again is another 'ancient' Tropical astrologer's Solar/Seasonal
Scheme of the Twelve Signs:

" The Signes are divided into four parts, answerable to the four
Quarters of the year : as,

Vernal (Aries, Taurus, Gemini) to the Spring Quarter, which is Hot and
Moist, Sanguine.

Aestival (Cancer, Leo, Virgo) to the Summer Quarter, Hot and Dry,
Choleric.

Autumn (Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius) to the Harvest Quarter, Cold
and Dry, Melancholy.

Winter (Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces) to the Winter Quarter, Cold
and Moist, Phlegmatick. "

~ from :

Henry Coley's *Key to the Whole Art of Astrology*,
1676, available here as a PDF :
http://tinyurl.com/2pk57x

[ By-the-way - with regard to the Planetary Hours, Henry Coley had this
to say in his *Key to the Whole Art of Astrology* :

"These Significations of the Planetary Hours are very Ancient, approved
of by the Arabians, and confirmed by Haly and later Authors, and may be
of good use, though they are not of that Efficacy as well-grounded
Elections, from an apt posture of the Heavens, which doth sympathize
with the Nativity (if it be known) of which I shall treat in the next
Section." ]

Astrology and Alchemy stand or fall together, as examples of the same
system of Physics.

I maintain that /Tropical Astrology/ is a perfectly coherent system,
despite the fact that /it is not Sidereal Astrology/.

Essentially, we're using the phase of the Sun with relation to the
Tropics within the frame of the Four Seasons and Twelve Signs: we map
the positions of the Luminaries (Sun and Moon) and the Planets and the
Fixed Stars against the Tropical Frame.

The "actual constellations" had to undergo considerable shuffling and
chopping in order to be normalized into Twelve Constellations that would
then provide a basis for the Twelve Signs of thirty Degrees each - the
Scales of Libra were made from the claws of the Scorpion, for example
( and there is still confusion in some circles regarding other
Constellations that obtrude upon the Ecliptic, such as Ophiuchus and
Cetus ).

The Babylonians may not have been aware of precession (the Twelve
Constellations move Westward at 1/72nd Degree per Year) when they
'normalized' the Signs, but we can see evidence of the 'fudging' that
was necessary to maintain their Sidereal system of Zodiac and Year
by the early fourth century BCE, when the disparity between the
Sidereal Constellations and Tropical Signs becomes glaringly obvious.

The determination of the Year and the Day was important enough to
the Agrarian Community to make a split between Sidereal Constellations
and Tropical Signs inevitable, when the True (Solar) Year no longer
corresponded to the Sidereal Year (see Manilius' *Astronomica* and
Aratus' *Phainomena*, and pretty much ANY Almanac next to the
check-out counter here in the 'States - the intended audience is
Farmers / Gardeners). I think that using a Sidereal Zodiac is a bit
like setting your watch to Greenwich Mean Time (so-called "Universal
Time"), instead of Local Noon.

In the case of Tropical Astrology, we are setting our Zodiac in accord
with the motion of the Prime Luminary (or Local Star) - the Sun. The
Elemental permutations of Four Seasons and the Twelve Signs proceed
from the movement of the Sun along the Ecliptic throughout the course
of the Solar Year, and I have already shown how this system accommodates
both the Northern and Southern Hemispheres without losing coherence.

The fact that we retain the names of the Twelve Constellations that were
originally configured to describe the Nature of the Twelve Phases of the
Sun's path along the Ecliptic doesn't involve any hand-waving at all,
for a Tropical Astrologer. The Twelve Signs remain fixed upon the
Tropical Frame of the Solar Year, while the Constellations move within
that Frame.

The Fixed Stars are modified by the Signs and Seasons (and Houses) just
as the Planets are.

The Hours that Astrological / Daemonic Magicians employ are the Unequal
/ Planetary Hours, nested within the seven-day Planetary Week, which
is, itself, nested within ever larger Cycles (Shemittah), with
Planetary / Sefirotic Rulers governing intervals spanning Seconds,
Minutes, Hours, Days, Weeks, Years, and on to periods of many thousands
of Years (see, again, our earlier discussion of Egregoroi). The most
common / widespread use of the system of Unequal / Planetary hours is
the computation of the time for observing the Sabbat on Friday Evening
in Judaism (the Jewish Day begins at Sunset) - there are even apps
(free) for Android devices that will perform this computation for you!

See:

*The Weekday Names and the Planetary Hours*
by Motti Yarchinai (.PDF)
http://tinyurl.com/7xxpkyp

*The Seven Day Circle: The History and Meaning of the Week*
by Eviatar Zerubavel
(Preview @GoogleBooks)
http://tinyurl.com/c3fz69f

*Time and the Calendars*
by William Matthew O'Neil, page 36->
(Preview @GoogleBooks)
http://tinyurl.com/d4ph4d2

Here again, some further discussion (with diagrams) regarding the
relationship of Alchemy with the Seven Planets of Astrology :

*Table 6.4: Ordering of Metals to Planets (Weekdays)*
~ in:
*Chapter 6 -
The Honeymoon : Lead and Alchemy:
Decoding Chemistry Within the Imagery*

~ from:

*Sublime Lead: The Biography of a 5000 Year Toxic Love Affair*
by Alanah Fitch (.PDF)
http://tinyurl.com/8xddav3

*The Paradox of the Planetary Metals*
by Yannis Almirantis(.PDF)
@ScientificExploration.org
http://tinyurl.com/c8ktv82

*The Paradox of the Planetary Metals*
by Yannis Almirantis
@ Urania's Gardens
http://tinyurl.com/c575o2n

See also:

*Saturn's Jews: On the Witches' Sabbat and Sabbateanism*,
by Moshe Idel, 2001.

Cors in Manu Domine
(and Shabbat Shalom!),


~ Khem Caigan
<[log in to unmask]>

"Heat and Moisture are Active to Generation;
Cold and Dryness are Passive, in and to each thing;
Fire and Air, Active by Elementation;
Water and Earth, Passive to Generation."

'Of the Division of Chaos'
-Dr. Simon Forman