Morgan,
Good point,
It's a mystery.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Morgan Leigh
Sent: 21 May 2012 07:53
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Academic Publishing--use to be 'Brill'
The obvious question seems to be why aren't universities funding the
publishing of their academics work? I mean, it's a fairly basic part of
academic life. We do research and then we publish it. Why aren't
universities publishing their academics work on the web where it is
easily accessible and it's cheaper than making hard copies.
Regards,
Morgan Leigh
PhD Candidate
School of Sociology and Social Work
University of Tasmania
On 21/05/2012 4:24 PM, Margaret Gouin wrote:
> I think it's a bit unfair that Brill is getting all the flack here. The
issue extends across the whole field of academic publishing, a topic which
regularly arises on the lists I subscribe to, and which invariably generates
a lot of heat. Professor Segal's point is well made--that Brill is investing
significant resources in producing a work that will be extremely useful to
the academic community but which will have little if any commercial
viability. For this, and for many similar publications in the past, we
should be grateful to Brill and to all the other academic publishers who
have done similar work.
>
> But at the same time it is necessary to recognise that means of
publication have changed, and more importantly, the economic situation has
changed. Libraries no longer have vast budgets to spend on every academic
publication that appears. As tuition fees rise, students are struggling to
cover the costs of food and lodging, let along materials. What would be
helpful, it seems to me (having only been through the 'traditional' academic
publishing cycle twice--once about thirty years ago, and once three years
ago, and believe me they were two very different experiences), is for the
academic publishers to enter into some kind of discussion with their
consumers--academics and universities, mainly--to look for some way(s) in
which the business of propagating reputable academic research can be made
both affordable and profitable for all concerned. Win-win situations do
exist, they just take more work than 'I win, you lose'.
>
> A couple of years ago, BASR (British Association for the Study of
Religions) had a publishers' panel at its annual conference. Unfortunately,
the publishers' presentations mostly revolved around variations of 'you need
us, and if you do what we say, we'll publish you'. This is not a helpful
attitude to start with. We have so many options now for self-publishing,
that it seems to me more as if the publishers need us, the writing
academics. However, I return again to Professor Segal's project: that is
clearly the type of major work which will be of great value to the scholarly
community but which no individual scholar or even group of scholars could
afford to take on (in either time or money) without a publisher willing to
back the enterprise.
>
> And on the other side of the coin, I'm aware that Brill (in particular)
has been kept waiting for years and years by some authors for works which
should have appeared up to a decade ago--but they will still publish them
should they ever finally reach the publishable stage. Very few corporations
would do that.
>
> Sincerely,
> Margaret Gouin
> ----------------------------------------
> Margaret Gouin, PhD (Bristol)
> Honorary Research Fellow
> School of Theology, Religious Studies and Islamic Studies
> University of Wales Trinity Saint David
> ________________________________________
> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Morgan Leigh
[[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 21 May 2012 06:10
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Brill
>
> What's wrong with sending publishing executives on first class junkets
> when universities can't afford to buy the number of copies of books they
> need?
>
> What's wrong with academics giving their copyright away for nothing so
> that their universities can be charged exorbitant rates for the work
> those academics produced?
>
> Much of academic's work is funded from the 'public trough' so what's
> wrong with publishing companies profiting from work funded by the public
> purse by charging the public twice for that work?
>
> Regards,
>
> Morgan Leigh
> PhD Candidate
> School of Sociology and Social Work
> University of Tasmania
>
> On 21/05/2012 6:49 AM, Kevin Hataley wrote:
>> The same can be said about all corporate cultures. What is wrong with
>> enjoying life? The Islamic oil Sheiks live far beyond this measure. So
>> do governments. At least Brill has created a culture of success from
>> sheer commercial wherewithal. One certainly cannot say that about the
>> exorbitant and lavish expenses incurred at the public trough. I will not
>> even tread into the UAE culture of opulence.
>>
>> On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 1:32 PM, N.W. Azal <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>
>> An eminent Harvard trained Islamologist, who is far more eminent in
>> their field, had this to say about Brill a decade or so ago in a
>> post from a University of Chicago listserv:
>>
>> "From the inside of Brill, it is a culture that lavishes all-expense
>> paid first-class airfare trips and junkets on its editorial staff
>> and over pays its executives -- it is as close as one gets to a
>> royal privileged circle in the corporate world. The book company
>> that tries to emulate a banking culture."
>>
>> Nothing seems to have changed since that time. This person knows
>> books, knows the publishing world, knows their field better than
>> anyone I know and their opinion verbatim echoes a consensus out
>> there. This says nothing about the quality of Brill publications,
>> which are excellent and top of the notch, but it says volumes about
>> the "culture" which is determined to keep its costs at the
>> exorbitant levels it does which also ultimately short changes
>> universities (forget about students) who are forced to pay for them.
>>
>> 300 years or not, the business model followed by Brill is fast
>> become antiquated. Many see it. Many have called. Brill should
>> listen to the complaints and change accordingly, for their own sakes
>> as well as ours.
>>
>> N
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 9:56 PM, Segal, Professor Robert A.
>> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>
>> May 20
>>
>> Dear Morgan and others,
>>
>> After my prior experience with discussants on this list, I had
>> vowed to quit. But I have not yet done so, though it will take
>> only one more bullying, ad hominem outburst for me to do so now.
>> As an academic, I am accustomed to a modicum of civility.
>> Clearly, others are not.
>>
>> I am coediting a huge, three-volume VOCABULARY FOR THE STUDY OF
>> RELIGION for Brill. The project will take at least three years
>> to complete. The result will be both a print volume, which
>> will be hardback only, and an online version. I don't know
>> what the cost of either will be.
>>
>> I do know that the costs of producing the work are not
>> inconsiderable. Brill is paying the coeditors and
>> contributors and enlists a fulltime, in-house editor, one of
>> whose main responsibilities is managing the VOCABULARY. I
>> have no idea what the cost of printing the work or putting it
>> online will be, but the amount will not be small.
>>
>> Brill turns a profit. Otherwise it would cease to exist. But
>> other publishers, especially non-scholarly ones, are more
>> focused on making money than Brill. More commercial
>> publishers who turn out cheap paperbacks are not charities.
>> How naive can one be? The nature of the product, not of the
>> motive, accounts for the price.
>>
>> If Brill, which does not operate blindly, concluded that it
>> could make a profit by selling its publications more cheaply to
>> get bigger sales, it would do so. Publishes do not set book
>> prices to deter sales. How naive can one be?
>>
>> Brill publishes works that might well otherwise not be
>> published. I cannot imagine what other publisher would
>> undertake to publish the VOCABULARY. And the VOCABULARY is for
>> academics, and academics affiliated with libraries. It is not
>> aimed for the self-taught, who can readily find elsewhere
>> sources for their more popular needs.
>>
>> At the same time Continental academic publishers generally
>> charge lots for their books. But then some also charge
>> subventions, as do some US publishers. To my knowledge Brill
>> does not.
>>
>> Furthermore, Brill is not like Reed Elsevier, for which I once
>> coedited a journal. Reed Elsevier, together with Springer,
>> publishes journals, especially in medicine and the sciences,
>> that academics simply must read. These publishers regularly
>> double or triple their prices. They offer packages of journals
>> to induce libraries to buy everything--on the grounds that
>> individual journals thereby cost much less. A library can
>> still purchase a single journal, but the cost is so much higher
>> that libraries tend to give up and take the package.
>>
>> I am not aware of anything comparable with Brill. As superb as
>> many of its publications are, no one MUST read them. And the
>> prices do not go up geometically.
>>
>> I am honored to be coediting a major reference work for Brill,
>> which should be respected rather than castigated for what it
does.
>>
>>
>> Robert Segal
>>
>> University of Aberdeen
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
>> [[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of
>> Morgan Leigh [[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
>> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 12:46 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Looking for a publisher for
>> translation of al-Buni's Great Sun of Gnoses
>>
>> I had a big rant on the Pagan Studies list about this issue
>> recently, so
>> here I will just say...
>>
>> They all 'say' they are largely unconcerned with making money,
>> and many
>> deny they make money when they are raking it in. See here for
>> info on
>> this and to sign the boycott of Elsevier!
>>
>> http://thecostofknowledge.com
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Morgan Leigh
>> PhD Candidate
>> School of Sociology and Social Work
>> University of Tasmania
>>
>> On 20/05/2012 2:15 AM, HUMBERTO MAGGI wrote:
>> > Brill's price are an insult. How that connects to they being
>> "largely
>> > unconcerned with making money" is a mystery for me.
>> >
>> > HM
>> >
>> > --- Em *sáb, 21/4/12, Christopher I. Lehrich /<[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>/* escreveu:
>> >
>> >
>> > De: Christopher I. Lehrich <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> > Assunto: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Looking for a
>> publisher for
>> > translation of al-Buni's Great Sun of Gnoses
>> > Para: [log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> > Data: Sábado, 21 de Abril de 2012, 14:53
>> >
>> > If it's a sufficiently scholarly translation, you might
>> try Brill.
>> > They publish a lot of important texts within Islamic
>> history, and
>> > they're largely unconcerned with making money.
>> >
>> > Chris Lehrich
>> >
>> > On 4/20/2012 11:36 AM, N.W. Azal wrote:
>> >> The current Beirut printed edition of al-Buni and its
>> reprints
>> >> runs over 616 pages (not including index and table of
>> >> contents/fihrist). The 2004 Turkish annotated translation
and
>> >> edition was divided into two massive volumes of over
>> 2000/3000+
>> >> pages per volume. Serializing al-Buni is totally
>> unfeasible, if
>> >> one were to do it properly, that is. There are four books
>> here
>> >> with over 50+ chapters and numerous sub-divisions (as of
the
>> >> printed edition, although no consensus exists on the
chapter
>> >> divisions or its sub-divisions. All of these were added
>> later).
>> >> Plus there are countless diagrams, graphs and pictures. A
>> project
>> >> such as this would have to to be done much like (and even
>> better
>> >> than) how Llewelyn did Agrippa's /De occulta philosophia/
>> -- and
>> >> al-Buni's /Great Sun of Gnoses /is twice, three times
>> Agrippa's
>> >> size. The daunting scope of this project is what, I
>> suspect, has
>> >> scared off a few publishers I have been speaking to over
>> the years.
>> >>
>> >> N.W. Azal
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 5:20 PM, Karen Gregory
>> >> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello all:
>> >>
>> >> I passed the email to a friend at CUP and their
>> response was:
>> >>
>> >> "I've been finding that even books on Islamic science
are
>> >> rather specialized. The British have done more in your
>> >> friend's area. Kegan Paul (whom we used to
>> distribute) and
>> >> Brill would be worth trying. Alternatively, the
>> translation
>> >> could be serialized in the journal he mentions. Or
even
>> >> excerpts, which might generate more interest among
>> presses.
>> >>
>> >> Hope this helps.
>> >>
>> >> Best,
>> >>
>> >> Karen
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Daniel Harms
>> >> <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> >> <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I’ll add that a request for the Shams al-Maarif
>> in English
>> >> is one of the top trending and most commented
>> posts on my
>> >> blog, so there is substantial interest.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Sincerely,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dan Harms
>> >>
>> >> Bibliographer and Instructional Services Librarian
>> >>
>> >> SUNY Cortland Memorial Library
>> >> P. O. Box 2000
>> >>
>> >> Cortland, NY 13045
>> >>
>> >> (607) 753-4042 <tel:%28607%29%20753-4042>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> *From:*Society for The Academic Study of Magic
>> >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> >>
>> <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>] *On
>> >> Behalf Of *Dr Dave Evans
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> *Sent:* Friday, April 20, 2012 10:37 AM
>> >> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> >>
>> <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> >> *Subject:* Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Looking for
a
>> >> publisher for translation of al-Buni's Great Sun
>> of Gnoses
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> one of the many reasons i love this list : )
>> >>
>> >> Dave E
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 5:08 PM, mandrake
>> >> <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> >> <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 20/04/2012 13:57, Lil Osborn wrote:
>> >>
>> >> many thanks for plug
>> >> - yes would certainly be interested personally and
>> >> professionally
>> >> mogg
>> >> contacted Nima off linst
>> >>
>> >> Hi Nima, Have you tried Mandrake I know Mogg is
>> on the list.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Much love
>> >>
>> >> Lil
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my iPhone so please excuse the spelling.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 20 Apr 2012, at 11:59, "N.W. Azal"
>> >> <[log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> >> <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> My attempt to find a reputable publisher for
my
>> >> translation of al-Buni's opus magnum, the
/Shams
>> >> al-Ma'arif al-Kubra/ (The Great Sun of
>> Gnoses), seems
>> >> to be going nowhere. Generally speaking, even
>> though
>> >> there is now a journal dealing with occultism
>> in the
>> >> Islamic world, most Anglophone publishers
>> seem to be
>> >> uninterested in publishing a translation of
>> the most
>> >> comprehensive Islamic hermetic text, claiming
>> it to
>> >> be, in the words of one outfit, "too arcane
>> an area to
>> >> prove a lucrative investment"; this, while
>> there seems
>> >> to be huge demand from a market of non-Arabic
>> readers
>> >> for a translation of this specific work.
>> >>
>> >> I am open to suggestions as to who to talk to
if
>> >> anyone has any ideas or contacts.
>> >>
>> >> N.W. Azal
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Karen Gregory
>> >> PhD candidate
>> >> Department of Sociology
>> >> The Graduate Center
>> >> City University of New York
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> > Christopher I. Lehrich
>> > Assistant Professor of Religion
>> > Boston University
>> >
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland,
>> No SC013683.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *K.M. (Kevin) Hataley*
>> *
>> *
>> Calgary, Canada
>> *skype: kevin.hataley*
>>
>>
>
> --
--
|
