This is also fine in Newfoundland English (roots in England's West Country and
in Ireland).
Ruth
Quoting "Flanigan, Beverly" <[log in to unmask]>:
> I heard the "went to work and" construction often in Minnesota. My home area
> was largely Scandinavian, with some German and Belgian Flemish second and
> third generation families. It seemed to be used (as I reflect now) to add
> emphasis in a narrative.
>
> Beverly
> ________________________________________
> From: Variationist List [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul Hopper
> [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2012 11:45 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: A question about a locution used by the "girlfriend" of Trayvon
> Martin
>
> Danielle and others,
>
> That's very interesting. Years ago I knew an elderly woman, a second
> generation Bohemian, who had known Czech as a child but lost it quite
> early. She was fond of telling stories, and she used the English
> expression 'go to work and' whenever she wanted to grab attention for an
> event. Two examples I remember: "he went to work and put six spoonfuls of
> sugar in the cup" and "five miles outside the town their car went to work
> and ran out of gas.' She did this very often. It was very striking. A
> relic of a Czech perfective verb, perhaps? In my article I discuss the
> foregrounding function of these pseudo-coordinations in discourse.
>
> 'Turn around and' has the peculiarity that (in COBUILD) it collates 89%
> with the verb 'say', and 96% with verba dicendi generally.
>
> By the way, the restriction of 'try and' to uninflected forms is well
> known, and is described in the Quirk, Greenbaum, Leech and Svartvik,
> Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language (Longman 1985), see pp. 507.
> See also pp. 979 and 987-8 for "quasi-auxiliaries" and
> pseudo-coordinations. They discuss the emotive uses of these forms also,
> like 'went and did it', 'sit there and..."
>
> Best,
>
> Paul
>
>
> > Paul, I haven't read your article (unfortunately) so I hope what I say
> > here
> > below makes sense.
> >
> > I remember one student in my first years of teaching in a Quebec City high
> > school. She, Ginette, repetitively used "il arrive il dit" before almost
> > every
> > citation in her narration. We were in an Upper Town school but Ginette was
> > among the students coming from the Lower Town part of the city where the
> > poor
> > and lower working class lived at the time. The expression was fairly
> > common
> > among the Lower Town students but Ginette was definitely the champion. It
> > made
> > her sound like a low class girl who wanted to be emphatic in order to be
> > listened to.
> >
> > I could never make any sense of that until I studied aspect and
> > backgounding/foregrounding in discourse in Algonquian languages.
> >
> > Algonquian languages have no indirect speech so they must constantly
> > quote. They
> > have two ways of doing so.
> >
> > If the quotation is just a detail in the narration they put the quotation
> > first,
> > followed by "s/he says" in the indicative mood. This is understood as a
> > backgrounded quotation.
> >
> > If the quotation is crucial to the progress of the narration, they use the
> > particle "ekue" meaning 'and then' + "s/he said" in the conjunctive mood,
> > followed by the quotation. This is understood as a foregrounded quotation.
> >
> > To me, what we see here in "come and say", "turn (a)round and say" or
> > French "il
> > arrive il dit" are foregrounding techniques in discourse. I concur this
> > way of
> > looking at it would englobe categories such as "indignant", etc. mentioned
> > in
> > this conversation.
> >
> > I suppose, as was mentioned by one of us, there might be some cognitive
> > motivation behind the surface form as there seems to be some typological
> > tendencies in the constructions.
> >
> > Best to all,
> > Danielle
> >
> >
> > Quoting Paul Hopper <[log in to unmask]>:
> >
> >> In my article “Hendiadys and auxiliation in English” (in Complex
> >> Sentences
> >> in Grammar and Discourse, ed. by Joan Bybee and Mickey Noonan, 145-173,
> >> Benjamins 2002), I discuss things like turn (a)round and, go ahead and,
> >> try and, take NP and, and a few others.
> >>
> >> Paul Hopper
> >>
> >>
> >> > Its most usually "turned round and", Damien, of course, "around" being
> >> > less usual outside N America.
> >> >
> >> > Ive heard "turned round and" a lot in NZ too.
> >> >
> >> > Peter
> >> >
> >> > On 5 Apr 2012, at 09:47, Damien Hall wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Dear all
> >> >
> >> > First, a forward from Gillian Sankoff and Bill Labov, who read this
> >> > question here, but Gillian’s having trouble posting to the list (the
> >> > server can be finicky), so I’m forwarding the message:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Dear Hal,
> >> > For this, see
> >> > Spears, Arthur. 1982. The Black English semi-auxiliary
> >> > come. Language 58:850-72.
> >> > The meaning is one of moral indignation.
> >> > It's very likely that Trayvon's girlfriend did NOT pronounce the word
> >> > "and", which is transcribed here.
> >> > We have not been able to locate a sound file to check the
> >> transcription.
> >> > Best wishes,
> >> > Gillian Sankoff & Bill Labov
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The ‘moral indignation’ meaning has been discussed in this thread and
> >> > people have said there isn’t any reason to think TM’s girlfriend was
> >> > indignant, but I think the analysis can be slightly modified so that
> >> it’s
> >> > clear that she might be using the same construction. Maybe you don’t
> >> have
> >> > to be actually indignant to use it, but the situation you’re in has to
> >> be
> >> > shocking, scandalous, urgent, etc, or at least you have to want to
> >> convey
> >> > that that’s what you feel. In this case, the situation obviously
> >> _was_
> >> > shocking, scandalous and urgent, but in general this quotation
> >> reminded me
> >> > strongly of BrE _turn around and say_, which can but doesn’t always
> >> convey
> >> > that the situation described is objectively shocking. Here’s what I
> >> wrote
> >> > to Hal about my impressions yesterday.
> >> >
> >> > It reminds me very strongly of the (I think) BrE narrative
> >> construction
> >> > _turn around and say_. Googling will show that it’s quite common.
> >> The
> >> > people at this thread
> >> >
> >> > http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?p=32491238
> >> >
> >> > include it in a list of locutions they hate, but have a nice
> >> definition of
> >> > it, which is ‘say something unexpected’. I don’t think it’s just
> >> that,
> >> > because (as pointed out by the posters in this thread) it can be used
> >> > before every turn in a conversation that’s being described, so that
> >> > sometimes it seems to be more-or-less a simple synonym for _say_.
> >> This is
> >> > the sense in which this _come and say_ reminds me of _turn around and
> >> > say_; in the made-up account of the use of _turn around and say_
> >> which
> >> > begins this thread:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Why do people say this all the time? I had a conversation today with a
> >> > mate and she kept saying she turned round and said, then he turned
> >> round
> >> > and said, i was feeling dizzy by the end of it! If these people were
> >> > actually turning round when they turned round and said, nobody would
> >> be
> >> > saying anything, they'd be too busy throwing up!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > the writer makes it clear that you can use _turn around and say_
> >> multiple
> >> > times in describing the same conversation, so that the construction of
> >> the
> >> > discourse when written down can look similar to this _come and say_
> >> > narration that you quote. Maybe I can categorise the similarity by
> >> saying
> >> > that it looks as if both locutions can be used to narrate the turns in
> >> > conversations where the narrator wants to convey that the situation
> >> was
> >> > shocking, scandalous, urgent etc. The content in _turn around and
> >> say_
> >> > cases isn’t always (or maybe even usually) objectively shocking,
> >> > scandalous or urgent, but the narrator is inviting the listener to
> >> share
> >> > his/her sense of that. Of course, this is different in that the
> >> content of
> >> > TM’s ‘girlfriend’s’ narration _was_ shocking, as someone ended up
> >> dead;
> >> > but you see what reminded me of _turn around and say_.
> >> >
> >> > Damien
> >> >
> >> > ________________________________
> >> >
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> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Paul J. Hopper
> >> Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities
> >> Department of English
> >> Carnegie Mellon University
> >> Pittsburgh, PA 15213
> >>
> >> Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, Department of Linguistics, University
> >> of
> >> Pittsburgh
> >>
> >> Senior External Fellow
> >> School of Linguistics and Literature
> >> Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS)
> >> Freiburg i.Br., Germany
> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
> > "The only hope we have as human beings is to learn each other's languages.
> > Only
> > then can we truly hope to understand one another."
> >
> > Professor Danielle E. Cyr
> > Department of French Studies
> > York University
> > Toronto, ON, Canada, M3J 1P3
> > Tel. 1.416.736.2100 #310180
> > FAX. 1.416.736.5924
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
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>
>
> --
> Paul J. Hopper
> Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities
> Department of English
> Carnegie Mellon University
> Pittsburgh, PA 15213
>
> Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, Department of Linguistics, University of
> Pittsburgh
>
> Senior External Fellow
> School of Linguistics and Literature
> Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS)
> Freiburg i.Br., Germany
>
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