Rachel
If, as you say, "There's also no evidence of euthanasia being LESS
practiced in countries/jurisdictions that prohibit the practice in
law.", and given people are very rarely prosecuted in this country for
assisting, I question why we need to change the status quo in this
regard.
If it ain't broke, don't (waste time and resources to) fix it.
Laura
On 6 April 2012 20:22, Rachel Williams <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Gordon Cardona:
>
> First, I would contest the distinction made between assisted suicide and
> euthanasia. While it is argued that the former is a request made by the
> person him/herself"
>
>
> Rachel Williams: The distinction relates to the person carrying out the
> action/the causing of the death - assisted suicide is when death is
> facilitated, though not caused, by the assistance of another person(s);
> euthanasia is when death is caused by another person(s) with or without the
> dead person's permission.
>
>
> Gordon: "it would be naïve for us to forget that there are social forces
> influencing such a decision - let alone family pressure. "
>
>
> Rachel: As a rule, social forces impact human decisions.
>
> This includes disability critiques of euthanasia.
>
>
> Gordon: "Indeed, if assisted suicide is legalized, a decision to continue
> living might be deemed as selfish and irresponsible as it would pose an
> unnecessary burden on ones family or on society. "
>
>
> Rachel: What does years of data on this very question say?
>
>
> Gordon: "We also need to factor in the economic situation that often
> determines the funds allocated to proper health care and independent living
> services."
>
>
> Rachel: Again, what does research say about the economic motivations behind
> euthanasia decisions?
>
>
> Gordon: "Second, I think that before debating whether assisted suicide
> should be made legal, we have to ask ourselves why people are choosing to
> end their life in the first place,."
>
> Rachel: Suicide has been a human phenomenon forever. That's not going to
> change.
>
> There are many reasons for choosing euthanasia/assisted suicide. Again,
> there's plenty of research discussing the motivations. Why not refer to the
> research instead of raising hypothetical questions about this topic?
>
> Gordon: "Of course, physical pain is one reason that is often cited."
>
> Rachel: It's rarely the main motivation for seeking euthanasia.
>
> Gordon: "However, are we ready to take an easy way out and encourage people
> living in already hard conditions to give up hope?"
>
> Rachel: Does every medical condition provide someone "hope"? For example,
> does terminal cancer, ASL ("Lou Gehrig's disease"), Alzheimer's?
>
> (These are the three most common conditions of the people opting for
> assisted suicide/voluntary euthanasia.)
>
> Should we clump every impairment experientially into one basket ?
>
> Gordon: "Should we perhaps invest in pain management and helping people to
> improve on their quality of life? "
>
> Rachel: Where's the evidence that society hasn't invested in pain management
> and "helping people to improve on their quality of life" ?
>
> Gordon: "Are we supporting people facing, in our case, terminal conditions,
> enough or are we reducing on their options?"
>
> Rachel: Why not refer to the research on this topic?
>
> Gordon: "Third, I understand that the end of life debate is a highly
> controversial and emotional one. I have been through moments in my life when
> I was experiencing excruciating pain and felt isolated. I admit that during
> these moments, I would have considered to die if that option would have been
> available or if I felt that any decision to prolong my life was proving to
> be a burden on others. I am afraid that there were occasions in life when I
> felt my life as a disabled person was being devalued when I hear people
> telling me that they would prefer to die rather than live like me. In this
> sense, wouldnt assisted suicide promote this kind of attitude that you have
> to prove youre worthy of living?"
>
> Rachel: From survey data on many jurisdictions, the vast majority of people
> oppose making euthanasia available for depression alone or for someone
> experiencing excruciating pain.
>
> I'm not clear why would you have to prove that you're worthy of living if
> there are restrictions placed on the circumstances allowing euthanasia.
>
> It also begs the question why other policies (e.g., legalized abortion, the
> death penalty) haven't gone down a slippery slope.
>
> Why would the situation be different for euthanasia?
>
> Gordon: "I dont claim that my views represent the views of all disabled
> people."
>
> Rachel: Far from it. You're amongst a vocal minority.
>
> Gordon: "However, what I know is that if we insist on legalizing for
> assisted suicide, we risk to reduce any effort to make the life of people
> with terminal conditions better. "
>
> Rachel: Again, refer to the evidence instead of raising hypothetical
> arguments.
>
> Gordon: "And, in the long run, assisted suicide will be presented as a free
> choice to people who are deemed by society to be undesirable and it will
> extend to include disabled people, minorities and so on. "
>
> Rachel: There's been decades of data collected on euthanasia in Holland and
> more than a decade in Oregon. There's no evidence of "undesirable" groups
> being targeted in either jurisdiction. There's also no evidence of
> euthanasia being LESS practiced in countries/jurisdictions that prohibit the
> practice in law. It's typically a tiny fraction of overall deaths in any
> jurisdiction,
> (when coupled with withdrawal/withholding treatment, it's about 20 something
> percent of deaths per year, overwhelmingly of people who are hours or days
> from death).
>
> Gordon: "Despite any claims that this process of providing this right will
> be regulated, if people find that their choices have been limited or that
> they see no other ways to solve their situation, then the choice to end
> their lives isnt rally free at all."
>
> Rachel: Again, what does the evidence show on the motivations behind seeking
> euthanasia (e.g., the demographics of the people opting for euthanasia and
> of the people supporting euthanasia)? It's not what you're suggesting.
>
> Of course, no one can predict the future - which applies to assumptions
> around the 'negative' consequences of legalizing euthanasia.
>
> Gordon: "I apologize for my long response. However, today were discussing
> whether people should be given the right to be assisted in ending their
> life. "
>
> Rachel: Suicide already occurs. It will never disappear entirely. The
> population is also continuing to grow older and with that comes more long
> term conditions, and often more progressive deterioration of the body. There
> is a 'vibrant' underground euthanasia movement throughout the world. Denying
> people the right to assisted suicide/voluntary euthanasia does NOT eliminate
> the prevalence of euthanasia in the world - rather it pushes the issue
> underground.
>
> You've made a lot of assumptions in your e-mail that you haven't taken the
> time to support. Have you read literature on the "motivations for seeking
> euthanasia", on the pain management services available for the dieing, or on
> the underground euthanasia movement? If you haven't (which I assume from
> your points), are you in a position to be advocating so strongly against
> euthanasia?
>
> Gordon: "Tomorrow we will be arguing that people who are facing difficult
> conditions have the responsibility to end their lives for the benefit of the
> many. "
>
> Rachel: That assumes a lot.
>
> Further, it flies in the face of all efforts on the part of medicine, policy
> makers, and society to keep people alive, and the amount of deliberation
> that goes into decisions around removing life support, withdrawing
> treatment, and certainly allowing people access to legalized assisted
> suicide/voluntary euthanasia for a minority of medical circumstances.
>
> Gordon: "instead of focusing on assisted living, or ways we could improve
> independent living and pain management (where needed), we are instead
> focusing on how to get rid of what we perceive as the problem"
>
> Rachel: Completely untrue.
>
> Also, there are extremists in every society. The vast majority of people
> don't refer to disabled people as "the problem" that "needs getting rid of".
>
> Gordon: "And that I cannot ever agree to. "
>
> Rachel: I can accept that.
>
> ________________________________
>
>
> From: The Disability-Research Discussion List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Gordon C. Cardona
> Sent: 02 April 2012 15:21
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: EPC - March 28, 2012 - Update
>
> I’ve been reluctant to get involved in this discussion on
> end of life issues. However, as a disabled person, I feel I can’t afford to
> remain silent about an issue which may have direct implications on my future
> and on the future of other disabled people.
>
> First, I would contest the distinction made between “assisted suicide” and
> “euthanasia”. While it is argued that the former is a request made by the
> person him/herself, it would be naïve for us to forget that there are social
> forces influencing such a decision - let alone family pressure. Indeed, if
> assisted suicide is legalized, a decision to continue living might be deemed
> as “selfish” and “irresponsible” as it would pose an unnecessary burden on
> one’s family or on society. We also need to factor in the economic situation
> that often determines the funds allocated to proper health care and
> independent living services.
>
> Second, I think that before debating whether assisted suicide should be made
> legal, we have to ask ourselves why people are choosing to end their life in
> the first place,. Of course, physical pain is one reason that is often
> cited. However, are we ready to take an easy way out and encourage people
> living in already hard conditions to give up hope? Should we perhaps invest
> in pain management and id helping people to improve on their quality of
> life? Are we supporting people facing, in our case, terminal conditions,
> enough or are we reducing on their options?
>
> Third, I understand that the end of life debate is a highly controversial
> and emotional one. I have been through moments in my life when I was
> experiencing excruciating pain and felt isolated. I admit that during these
> moments, I would have considered to die if that option would have been
> available or if I felt that any decision to prolong my life was proving to
> be a burden on others. I am afraid that there were occasions in life when I
> felt my life as a disabled person was being devalued when I hear people
> telling me that they would prefer to die rather than live like me. In this
> sense, wouldn’t assisted suicide promote this kind of attitude that you have
> to prove you’re worthy of living?
>
> I don’t claim that my views represent the views of all disabled people.
> However, what I know is that if we insist on legalizing for assisted
> suicide, we risk to reduce any effort to make the life of people with
> terminal conditions better. And, in the long run, assisted suicide will be
> presented as a “free choice” to people who are deemed by society to be
> “undesirable” and it will extend to include disabled people, minorities and
> so on. DespiteDespite any claims that this process of providing this right
> will be regulated, if people find that their choices have been limited or
> that they see no other ways to solve their situation, then the choice to end
> their lives isn’t rally free at all.
>
> I apologize for my long response. However, today we’re discussing whether
> people should be given the right to be assisted in ending their life.
> Tomorrow we will be arguing that people who are facing difficult conditions
> have the responsibility to end their lives for the benefit of the many.
> instead of focusing on assisted living, or ways we could improve independent
> living and pain management (where needed), we are instead focusing on how to
> get rid of what we perceive as the problem. And that I cannot ever agree
> to.
>
>
> Best,
> Gordon
>
>
>
> Gordon C. Cardona
> BA (Hons.) Malta, MA (Leeds)
> ------------------------------------------------------
> e-mail: [log in to unmask]
> web: http://www.gordonGD.com/
> blog: http://gdzone.gordonGD.com/
> pod: http://audioboo.fm/GordonGD
>
>
>
>
>
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