Hi M,
Oxford dictionary definition of science: the study or knowledge of the physical and natural world, based on observation and experiment,
and scientific: systematic, methodical,
I presume you have studied psychology which is a science and think it odd, therefore, that you can't seem to distinguish between some things that are done under the guise of science ( i.e. the tobacco industry research into the dangers of smoking) and the process itself, whether before or after Wittgenstein is here immaterial,
cheers,
Greta
________________________________________
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mark Rapley [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 21 March 2012 07:14
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the emperor's new clothes'
Hi Greta,
I'm all for calm and reasoned analysis. However, it is a philosophical issue
(hence my use of the term incommensurability). And let's not get ourselves
caught up in the myth that "science" is a trouble-free matter of
'rationality' (see, for example Nigel Gilbert & Michael Mulkay's - Opening
Pandora's Box: A Sociological Analysis of Scientists' Discourse, Cambridge
University Press, 1984).
More to the point, and after Wittgenstein, choosing a "scientific" approach
to matters of right and wrong (which is what moral debate is about, after
all) is - in and of itself a moral - not a scientific choice.
And to be perfectly honest, the question about bankers is a bit of a cheap
shot.
Cheers,
M
Mark Rapley, PhD,
Professor of Clinical Psychology,
Programme Director - Doctoral Degree in Clinical Psychology,
School of Psychology,
The University of East London,
Stratford Campus,
Water Lane,
London, E15 4LZ,
U.K.
Tel: +44 (0)208 223 6392 (Direct)
Tel: +44 (0)208 223 4567 (Messages)
Tel: +44 (0)7951 908409 (Mobile)
-----Original Message-----
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of Greta Sykes
Sent: Tue 3/20/2012 18:13
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the emperor's
new clothes'
Hi M,
what could be wrong with a dispassionate and rational analysis of any matter,
including something to pertinently bad for human societies, such as what we
call 'evil', ie child abuse, rape, etc? As far as I know science is just such
an approach, dispassionate and rational, or are you saying morality is
outside rational analysis, similar to how bankers say the market is outside
morality?
Greta
________________________________
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mark Rapley
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 19 March 2012 19:32
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the emperor's
new clothes'
Hi Greta,
I must say I struggle to understand (a) how anyone could "scientifically
engage" with what is a moral, not a 'scientific', issue and (b) even assuming
that these were not utterly incommensurable spheres, how on earth one
"scientifically" measures 'zero degrees of empathy' is beyond me. Still there
isn't a lot of "science" behind ToM either (but a similar lack of philosophy
of science) - so at least the project is consistent ;)
Cheers
M
On 19 March 2012 19:17, Greta Sykes
<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Hi,
you could have a look at Simon Baron-Cohen's recent book in which he defines
evil as 'zero degrees empathy' in order to begina process that helps us to
scientifically engage with the subject,
Greta
________________________________________
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
[[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On
Behalf Of Mark Rapley [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
Sent: 15 March 2012 23:31
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the emperor's
new clothes'
Hi Stephanie
How would I define evil? I'd resist that to the n-th degree. Further, 1. I
think any community of like minded members knows what 'evil' means... and it
may mean very different things to and in different communities of use: but
I'm pretty sure we would use it interchangeably with each other knowing
precisely what the referents were. It's a language game. 2. I think you
actually made my point when you said "feeling 'mad' ... kind of off
balance". What exactly is lacking from those "definitions" aside from formal
professional ratification? Nothing I can see.
Hope this isn't "slippery"!!!
M
Mark Rapley, PhD,
Professor of Clinical Psychology,
Programme Director - Doctoral Degree in Clinical Psychology,
School of Psychology,
The University of East London,
Stratford Campus,
Water Lane,
London, E15 4LZ,
U.K.
Tel: +44 (0)208 223 6392<tel:%2B44%20%280%29208%20223%206392> (Direct)
Tel: +44 (0)208 223 4567<tel:%2B44%20%280%29208%20223%204567> (Messages)
Tel: +44 (0)7951 908409<tel:%2B44%20%280%297951%20908409> (Mobile)
-----Original Message-----
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of Stephanie
Meadows
Sent: Thu 3/15/2012 16:01
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the emperor's
new clothes'
Thanks Mark for references and suggestions of more accurate words... what
would you use for the experience of feeling 'mad'? I could do with some more
clear terminology; and I don't mean mad with rage, but kind of off balance.
Also the word 'evil' seems as slippery as 'mad' to me... how would you define
it?
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:04:33 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the emperor's
new clothes'
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
David Healy's work comes close - try Let Them Eat Prozac: The Unhealthy
Relationship Between the Pharmaceutical Industry and Depression and Shaping
the Intimate. Influences on the Experience of Everyday Nerves. Social Studies
of Science 34, 219-245. (both 2004). His blog is at
http://davidhealy.org/
Ray Moynihan's work is also excellent: see Selling Sickness: How the worlds
biggest drug companies are turning us all into patients (and the rest!!! at
http://raymoynihan.com/books/ )
Vis a vis your second point, I get where you are coming from but think it's
long overdue that we on this list, of all people, stopped using 'mad' as a
metaphor for unwanted conduct (see: Sarbin, T. R. (1990). Metaphors of
unwanted conduct: A historical sketch. In D. W. Leary (Ed), Metaphors in the
history of psychology (pp. 300-330). New York: Cambridge University Press) -
even lightheartedly (see also shameless plug here:
http://www.palgrave.com/products/title.aspx?pid=393144). We have plenty of
good enough words for the ways of behaving that you identify as deplorable
without resorting to medicalised terminology - avarice, greed, hubris (sans
'syndrome'), duplicity, evil and the rest.
M
On 14 March 2012 23:43, Annie Mitchell
<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
David Owen wrote a book in which he invented a term: hubris syndrome - to
describe the madness of power in political leaders,. He said about Tony
Blair and George Bush - They'd stopped listening and were behaving
recklessly, taking their instructions direct from the Almighty. An almost
messianic fervour led to the biggest foreign policy blunder for a century:
the invasion of Iraq. But Owen was a politician and doctor himself, so his
illness category was very medical model - i like your gold hoarding disorder
better, or what about the lie to keep them numb and confused while we make
our massive profits disorder?
Annie x
________________________________
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
[[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On
Behalf Of Stephanie Meadows
[[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
Sent: 14 March 2012 21:43
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the emperor's new
clothes'
Disclaimer... decided to use the word 'mad'; hope this is PC with all !!!
There have been interesting past discussions on the social constuction of
madness via the DSM ie.making you think you are mad when you're not.
I would be interested in anyone's views/ links to writings on actual
madness/ psychological distress being intentionally cultivated via the media
in order to disorientate and control ie.making you feel mad when you would
normally feel ok, maybe resulting in inability to think straight and make
good decisions... (and maybe 'buy products', or 'go indoors and stop making a
fuss').
people can be so humble ... they often doubt their own sanity before
questioning the sanity of their 'leaders'
maybe we don't like to face the idea that our 'leaders' may be 'mad'
themselves (even though we joke about it)
but what if they really were? (how about obsessional gold hoarding disorder
maybe that could maybe make it into the DSM with our support!)
To be 'resilient', people will need a new gameplan than trying to be 'good'
and 'follow the leader'
I look forward to any of your comments
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