Deborah, I do recall you claiming to cycling your children to school and
then cycling on to work, no mention of an automobile...was this poetic
licence, I wonder?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deborah Chinn" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the emperor's
new clothes'
yes it's true, I do often deride along in my automobile
----Original Message----
From: [log in to unmask]
Date: Mar 26, 2012 11:29
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 'the war without bullets' and 'the emperor's new clothes'
The earth’s not flat? They never even mentioned that in Thorntons.
Carl
Carl Walker
School of Applied Social Science
University of Brighton
Mayfield House
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9PH
t. 01273 643475
e. [log in to unmask]
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List [mailto:
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Greta Sykes
Sent: 26 March 2012 10:39
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the
emperor's new clothes'
actually science is a method, a tool, not a concept,
some of you guys seem to come from the flat earth society, living in
the chocolate shop of the world, you enjoy all the benefits of
scientific progress, such as central heating, electric light and
automobiles, yet deride them as if they were nothing, while the rest of
the world is desiring those same benefits, seems hypocritical to me,
Greta
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of CRAIG NEWNES
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 24 March 2012 17:08
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the
emperor's new clothes'
Ronnie Hawkins (whoever he/she is) is clearly bonkers. How can science
attempt to understand anything? It is scientists who, through
culturally filtered glasses, are funded to look at some things and not
others in order to understand. Science is a concept not a sentient
being.
Craig
From: Greta Sykes <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Saturday, 24 March 2012, 12:47
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the
emperor's new clothes'
Ronnie Hawkins (Chuluota, Florida, New Scientist, 17.3.12) writes:
Science atttempts to understand things in a way that is independent of
our thoughts about them. Our social constructions, on the other hand,
would not exist outside of our shared web of beliefs, desires,
intentions and expectations. We have become so preoccupied with that
socially constructed symbol we call money (or other symbolic
phenomenological constructs (my addition), that we have forgotten the
total dependence of the economy (and our thought processes, see
Vygotsky (my addition) upon ecology, and seem to be destabilising the
latter upon the order of the former.
What most conservatives fear is that the public wiill one day see
this, begin to integrate scientific knowledge into their world view,
and restore proper dependency relations, changing our social
institutions accordingly. What the conservatives want to conserve is an
abstract conceptual scheme that is out of touch with reality, not the
concrete Earth systems that actually support our lives and are now
urgently in need of conversation.
Little wonder that they seek to cast doubt not only on climate change
but also on evolution and the origins of life. The battle for
humanity's future, therefore, must ber recognised as a battle over the
nature of reality itself,
Greta
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of COMBES Helen A [H.A.
[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 22 March 2012 15:57
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the
emperor's new clothes'
I am inclined to agree with Mark. There is very little evidence around
theory of mind. Evil = 0 empathy makes no sense to me, but maybe that’s
because I have no theory of mind. Indeed how do we study what is not
there. How do I decide what is moral? Morality changes across contexts.
We can study the context in which acts occur but to reify an abstract
concept or metaphor in order to scientifically study it seems bizarre
to me.
Helen
Helen Combes, DClinPsy, CPsychol
Principal Clinical Lecturer, Shropshire and Staffordshire DClinPsy
Registered Clinical Psychologist
(01782) 295803.
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List [mailto:
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Greta Sykes
Sent: 22 March 2012 15:22
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 'the war without bullets' and 'the emperor's new clothes'
Hi Steph,
Thanks you for the film, it’s fascinating,
I agree with your use of the word science, surely any area of
knowledge should be ‘shined’ upon in this way, especially morality,
which this government never mentions, neither do they mention justice,
how odd and obvious,
Greta
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List [mailto:
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stephanie Meadows
Sent: 20 March 2012 07:40
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the
emperor's new clothes'
Hi Mark and Greta
I thought a 'purpose' of science as a practice is to shine clarity on
an object/area of study, so surely any area of curiosity is up for
being scientifically examined... just requires the imagination to find
the method... surely morality is an area open for examination (I would
welcome this as 'morality' can be so manipulative in peoples lives).
Also 'zero degrees empathy' is a good start... my own experiences of
what I might call evil have certainly had that quality of experience...
and to measure this? best not to set up experiments..! but interviewing
would be a method to start with.
With regard to the original posting...thanks to all who have offered
suggestions. I have found a great film about Freud's nephew and the
creation of consumer consciousness and desire which is added as an
attachment ,
Steph
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 19:32:50 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the
emperor's new clothes'
To: [log in to unmask]
Hi Greta,
I must say I struggle to understand (a) how anyone could
"scientifically engage" with what is a moral, not a 'scientific', issue
and (b) even assuming that these were not utterly incommensurable
spheres, how on earth one "scientifically" measures 'zero degrees of
empathy' is beyond me. Still there isn't a lot of "science" behind ToM
either (but a similar lack of philosophy of science) - so at least the
project is consistent ;)
Cheers
M
On 19 March 2012 19:17, Greta Sykes <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Hi,
you could have a look at Simon Baron-Cohen's recent book in which he
defines evil as 'zero degrees empathy' in order to begina process that
helps us to scientifically engage with the subject,
Greta
________________________________________
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mark Rapley [M.
[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 15 March 2012 23:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the
emperor's new clothes'
Hi Stephanie
How would I define evil? I'd resist that to the n-th degree. Further,
1. I
think any community of like minded members knows what 'evil' means...
and it
may mean very different things to and in different communities of use:
but
I'm pretty sure we would use it interchangeably with each other
knowing
precisely what the referents were. It's a language game. 2. I think
you
actually made my point when you said "feeling 'mad' ... kind of off
balance". What exactly is lacking from those "definitions" aside from
formal
professional ratification? Nothing I can see.
Hope this isn't "slippery"!!!
M
Mark Rapley, PhD,
Professor of Clinical Psychology,
Programme Director - Doctoral Degree in Clinical Psychology,
School of Psychology,
The University of East London,
Stratford Campus,
Water Lane,
London, E15 4LZ,
U.K.
Tel: +44 (0)208 223 6392 (Direct)
Tel: +44 (0)208 223 4567 (Messages)
Tel: +44 (0)7951 908409 (Mobile)
-----Original Message-----
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of
Stephanie
Meadows
Sent: Thu 3/15/2012 16:01
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the
emperor's
new clothes'
Thanks Mark for references and suggestions of more accurate words...
what
would you use for the experience of feeling 'mad'? I could do with
some more
clear terminology; and I don't mean mad with rage, but kind of off
balance.
Also the word 'evil' seems as slippery as 'mad' to me... how would you
define
it?
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 06:04:33 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the
emperor's
new clothes'
To: [log in to unmask]
David Healy's work comes close - try Let Them Eat Prozac: The
Unhealthy
Relationship Between the Pharmaceutical Industry and Depression and
Shaping
the Intimate. Influences on the Experience of Everyday Nerves. Social
Studies
of Science 34, 219-245. (both 2004). His blog is at
http://davidhealy.org/
Ray Moynihan's work is also excellent: see Selling Sickness: How the
worlds
biggest drug companies are turning us all into patients (and the
rest!!! at
http://raymoynihan.com/books/ )
Vis a vis your second point, I get where you are coming from but think
it's
long overdue that we on this list, of all people, stopped using 'mad'
as a
metaphor for unwanted conduct (see: Sarbin, T. R. (1990). Metaphors of
unwanted conduct: A historical sketch. In D. W. Leary (Ed), Metaphors
in the
history of psychology (pp. 300-330). New York: Cambridge University
Press) -
even lightheartedly (see also shameless plug here:
http://www.palgrave.com/products/title.aspx?pid=393144). We have
plenty of
good enough words for the ways of behaving that you identify as
deplorable
without resorting to medicalised terminology - avarice, greed, hubris
(sans
'syndrome'), duplicity, evil and the rest.
M
On 14 March 2012 23:43, Annie Mitchell <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
David Owen wrote a book in which he invented a term: hubris syndrome
- to
describe the madness of power in political leaders,. He said about
Tony
Blair and George Bush - They'd stopped listening and were behaving
recklessly, taking their instructions direct from the Almighty. An
almost
messianic fervour led to the biggest foreign policy blunder for a
century:
the invasion of Iraq. But Owen was a politician and doctor himself, so
his
illness category was very medical model - i like your gold hoarding
disorder
better, or what about the lie to keep them numb and confused while we
make
our massive profits disorder?
Annie x
________________________________
From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stephanie Meadows
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 14 March 2012 21:43
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] 'the war without bullets' and 'the
emperor's new
clothes'
Disclaimer... decided to use the word 'mad'; hope this is PC with all
!!!
There have been interesting past discussions on the social constuction
of
madness via the DSM ie.making you think you are mad when you're not.
I would be interested in anyone's views/ links to writings on actual
madness/ psychological distress being intentionally cultivated via the
media
in order to disorientate and control ie.making you feel mad when you
would
normally feel ok, maybe resulting in inability to think straight and
make
good decisions... (and maybe 'buy products', or 'go indoors and stop
making a
fuss').
people can be so humble ... they often doubt their own sanity before
questioning the sanity of their 'leaders'
maybe we don't like to face the idea that our 'leaders' may be 'mad'
themselves (even though we joke about it)
but what if they really were? (how about obsessional gold hoarding
disorder
maybe that could maybe make it into the DSM with our support!)
To be 'resilient', people will need a new gameplan than trying to be
'good'
and 'follow the leader'
I look forward to any of your comments
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