Just to add a little from the Glasgow experience here. There was a nice interactive map done about road  deaths that we looked at in terms of cyclist deaths for Glasgow. The really interesting and worrying thing was that there were very few incidents in the city centre. However, go out of the city and then that's where the incidents started. It's the periphery of the city where deaths cluster. Now I don't know how *statistically* significant it is - whether a statistical analysis would show that we are reading in meaning where it actually is due to random variation, but it looks quite striking. 
go to 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15975720

and put in e.g. Glasgow G1

alan

On 3 Feb 2012, at 08:50, gary cummins wrote:

> It has changed Nicholas, in a very short space of time. I do see couriers, and of course I know of them, but so what. I did not intend to suggest they are not part of the cycling culture...but they are there for a purpose as delivery staff, you might as well say TNT drivers are 'part of the driving culture'. The sort of folk I describe who are increasingly taking to cycling as a mode are ordinary folk who use it as a way to get to work, maybe middle class, probably most are middle class.
>  
> To say that I am...
>  
>  'as not unlike like that of the worthy middle classes living in the west of your city in the 19th century not acknowledging the existence of the masses in the east on the grounds that the never need to see them'  
>  
> ...is almost correct, but as I have lived in Whitechapel in Tower Hamlets since 1985 I certainly do live among the 'masses in the east'...as you describe them. Though as I said earlier I am now recently based in Scotland.
>  
> I posted a few of the comments earlier to my east end cycling friends (the masses to you) and one of them came back with:
>  
> Very interesting, thanks Gary. Yes, cycling is much safer in London. It is outside London that you build up too much speed and come a cropper if you come off :( . But to be serious I had not realised how large the difference was in fatality rates. (comparing A Roads to urban riding)
> 
> I find Hackney cyclists (the highest proportion by mode in London) usually tend to bother about looking trendy rather than kit themselves out with fluorescent gear and helmets.
>  
> Rather than me meet a few couriers, maybe you should get down to London, as you say you have not cycled there for a few years. I can put you in touch with plenty of folk who will happily take you on a circuit of the masses in the east, I'll happily do it myself. 
>  
> Gary Cummins
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> > Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 08:01:46 +0000
> > From: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: A request for help[Scanned-Clean]
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > 
> > Hmm, admittedly I've not cycled in London for a few years, but I do not remember the culture being that much different from anywhere else in the UK. Maybe you should meet a few couriers, they are a fairly visible part of cycling culture down there and to suggest that they are not that because 'you do not hang about with them' places your position not as not unlike like that of the worthy middle classes living in the west of your city in the 19th century not acknowledging the existence of the masses in the east on the grounds that the never need to see them. 
> > 
> > Nicholas Oddy 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > 
> > From: Cycling and Society Research Group discussion list on behalf of gary cummins
> > Sent: Wed 01/02/2012 21:45
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: A request for help[Scanned-Clean]
> > 
> > 
> > Come on Nicholas, do you really believe that the active participants among the 10,000 plus member of the London Cycling Campaign join, pay their £30 plus fee and spend weekends running stalls at civic events, volunteering at repair workshops and leading recreational easy rides NOT to increase the numbers cycling? 
> > 
> > In all my time living in and cycling around London I never encountered the type you describe above. I did not hang about with couriers I admit, but my fellow cyclists were really in for the transport, not a lifestyle or sport, simply a way to get about.
> > 
> > Gary Cummins
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > 
> > Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 20:58:24 +0000
> > From: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: A request for help[Scanned-Clean]
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > What you have is the same problem that beset the high bicycle, fine when you are on it, but it looks very dangerous...a long way to fall. There was no solution, but the riders who were attracted to the machine did not really want one. I'd suggest that many confident urban and A-road cyclists rather enjoy their elite do-or-die status and are not that worried about increasing the numbers.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Nicholas Oddy
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > From: Cycling and Society Research Group discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Jones
> > Sent: 31 January 2012 10:46
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: A request for help[Scanned-Clean]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Chris and all
> > 
> > Interesting use of the word 'objectively'. Subjective is 'real' enough to the 'subjects'. Of course people on this list will step forward and state, "that is really not my experience of cycling in London..." with implication that folk really just ought to get over it and try cycling to overcome their fears (and cycle training can help prepare for this!).
> > 
> > I read an interesting analogy by Blogger Cyclinginfo (an adept racing and commuter cyclist) http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/ this morning paraphrasing Michael Hutchinson writing in Cycling Weekly a couple of weeks ago: "Cycle around Kings Cross, London, and you can feel like a Lancaster bomber on a low flying mission across occupied Europe - trying to remain unmoved by all the flack coming from every angle. It's not a surprise American and London cyclists are the most likely to wear a helmet, fluorescent jacket et al. , even if the effect is purely psychological, you feel like you need some kind of protection."
> > 
> > As our Understanding Walking and Cycling research based on extensive in-depth research across four cities outside of London made clear, we are kidding ourselves if we think that a democratic landscape of cycling will emerge out of the current transport system without radical overhaul. The key is to eradicate the war not to encourage the trembling troops to train to go into battle.
> > 
> > Tim Jones
> > 
> > On 31 January 2012 10:00, Chris Peck <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > 
> > "This really is not my experience of cycling in London (UK), I'd suggest London (UK) is one of the more benign areas to cycle in in Britain hence some areas of the inner city with 10% modal share of cycling and rising. Cycling on rural A4 roads in Britain outwith built up areas can be far more intimidating."
> > 
> > ... and objectively more risky as well:
> > 
> > * 313 deaths per billion kms cycled on rural A-roads last year. 
> > 
> > * 11 deaths per billion kms cycled on minor urban roads. 
> > 
> > (see: http://www.ctc.org.uk/resources/Campaigns/1110_CTC_Transcom_RSS-con-final.pdf, from RAS30018)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > 
> > From: Cycling and Society Research Group discussion list [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of gary cummins
> > Sent: 31 January 2012 09:40
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: A request for help
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > John Meudell said:
> > 
> > 
> > On that particular point, I'd suggest making a clear distinction between the UK and Europe. My experience is that, if you can cycle confidently cycle around London without getting intimidated, run off the road or killed, you can survive anywhere!
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > This really is not my experience of cycling in London (UK), I'd suggest London (UK) is one of the more benign areas to cycle in in Britain hence some areas of the inner city with 10% modal share of cycling and rising. Cycling on rural A4 roads in Britain outwith built up areas can be far more intimidating.
> > 
> > Gary Cummins
> > 
> > 
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> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
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