...I probably knew that even if not the centuries,
Tilla
On 21 Jan 2012, at 15:41, Mark Weiss wrote:
> Tilla: It's been a noun since a couple of centuries before it became a
> verb and is still common in medical usage and in certain kinds of
> criticism. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/affect.
>
> Best,
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tilla Brading <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Jan 21, 2012 7:00 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a “poetry
>> establishment”
>>
>> at a tangent ....the effect of the verb affect as a noun is effective?
>> Tilla
>>
>> On 16 Jan 2012, at 21:55, Mark Weiss wrote:
>>
>>> Jamie: You do know that I'm partly joking around? Affect tends to get
>>> lost on email, largely because we're mostly strangers to each
>>> other--the same notes sent between friends are usually understood.
>>>
>>> There are however real issues. It would be nice if the limited
>>> resources in the kitty were spread around a bit better. It would also
>>> be nice not to be treated as if invisible.
>>>
>>> Let me add that as a Jew my affection for pork knows no bounds. Add
>>> to
>>> its native savor the lure of the exotic and the dangers of sin and
>>> you'll get my drift.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Mark Weiss
>>>> Sent: Jan 16, 2012 4:24 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a “poetry
>>>> establishment”
>>>>
>>>> The trough could be the beggar's banquet, where there's only crumbs
>>>> and everybody fights over them. Noblesse oblige doesn't apply.
>>>>
>>>> I was trying to be nice, but it's not always easy.
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Jamie McKendrick
>>>>> Sent: Jan 16, 2012 2:58 PM
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a
>>>>> “poetry
>>>>> establishment”
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A pretty miniscule trough, it has to be said. And "the pig", well,
>>>>> it doesn't exactly re-inforce your earlier statement that "it's
>>>>> fine
>>>>> to be a member of the mainstream."
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: Mark Weiss
>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:35 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a
>>>>>> “poetry establishment”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One does feel for the pig at the trough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: JAMIE MCK
>>>>>>> Sent: Jan 16, 2012 7:51 AM
>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a
>>>>>>> “poetry establishment”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, but sometimes it must be hard for those mainstreamers to
>>>>>>> occupy the political, the moral and the aesthetic low ground.
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Jamie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- On Sun, 15/1/12, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a
>>>>>>>> “poetry establishment”
>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>> Date: Sunday, 15 January, 2012, 22:11
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's fine to be a member of the mainstream. But a mark of that
>>>>>>>> membership is often the denial that a non-mainstream exists, and
>>>>>>>> that's not fine. In the US, and I think in Britain and Ireland
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> well, you may have noticed that those in the non-mainstream
>>>>>>>> generally recognize the names of the more important mainstream
>>>>>>>> poets, have even read them, but the reverse is often not the
>>>>>>>> case--I've had the experience of mentioning Oppen or Spicer and
>>>>>>>> being greeted with blank stares, this from people
>>>>>>>> university-certified as poets. Mention Randolph Healy or Peter
>>>>>>>> Manson in mainstream circles and see what you get.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Jan 15, 2012 3:37 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a
>>>>>>>> “poetry establishment”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I found Michael’s foray into the Swedish detective genre
>>>>>>>> entertaining, and
>>>>>>>>> particularly liked his rheumy-eyed, old string-puller with a
>>>>>>>> taste for
>>>>>>>>> Persian classics. But from then on his account becomes
>>>>>>>> unrecognizable. I
>>>>>>>>> wouldn’t quarrel – who would? – with his first proposition
>>>>>>>>> (‘And
>>>>>>>> yet,
>>>>>>>>> cultural establishments exist’) but with the way he goes on to
>>>>>>>> describe
>>>>>>>>> them: ‘like social classes....like the morale of sick
>>>>>>>> institutions’. Once
>>>>>>>>> these analogies are accepted – and, as Chris Hamilton Emery’s
>>>>>>>> note suggests,
>>>>>>>>> we all tend to think the establishment isn’t us – then ‘the
>>>>>>>> outsider’
>>>>>>>>> becomes the untainted figure whose perception is being
>>>>>>>> suppressed and
>>>>>>>>> ‘silenced, if it can’t be dimmed’. Here we have the
>>>>>>>>> "mainstream"
>>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>> tottering Arab dictatorship.
>>>>>>>>> The imagined ‘response to the outsider-( "but you don't
>>>>>>>> understand, if
>>>>>>>>> only you could meet... you would soon see... etc
>>>>>>>> etc")...manifests the
>>>>>>>>> effective though invisible self-defence of the establishment.’
>>>>>>>> Hardly that
>>>>>>>>> effective: such feeble pleading wouldn’t really be the manner
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>> establishment that, as Mark argues, ‘holds most of the power’.
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> think by
>>>>>>>>> this stage we’ve moved into Fantasyland - a fantasy which
>>>>>>>> flatters the
>>>>>>>>> integrity of the writer by assuming the lack of it among others
>>>>>>>> writers
>>>>>>>>> perceived to be more centrally placed.
>>>>>>>>> Having been described on this list, without any apparent
>>>>>>>> malice, as an
>>>>>>>>> ‘insider’ by someone whom I’d consider just as much an insider
>>>>>>>>> –
>>>>>>>> or an
>>>>>>>>> outsider – as myself, I’m inclined to agree with Chris’s sense
>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>> indeterminacy and relativity of the term. At what point does
>>>>>>>> somebody cease
>>>>>>>>> to be an outsider? When they are published by a bigger press?
>>>>>>>> When they
>>>>>>>>> receive reviews from newspapers? When they write for the
>>>>>>>> newspapers? When
>>>>>>>>> they have an institutional teaching post? When they start
>>>>>>>> writing reviews of
>>>>>>>>> their nephew’s translations from the Persian?
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>> Jamie
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 11:58 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a
>>>>>>>> “poetry
>>>>>>>>> establishment”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A familiar chapter in any Bildungsroman, when the hero begins
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> pierce the
>>>>>>>>> outer layers of the establishment only to to find its centre
>>>>>>>> constantly
>>>>>>>>> shrinking and moving away, - to find that no-one including of
>>>>>>>> course
>>>>>>>>> himself is ever part of what once (from outside) seemed so
>>>>>>>> monolithic and
>>>>>>>>> solid. We chase it down, and after many Proustian penetrations
>>>>>>>> eventually
>>>>>>>>> reduce it to (Stieg Larsson-style) a single mild, old and
>>>>>>>> terminally-ill
>>>>>>>>> gentleman who views us through milky ice-blue eyes and murmurs
>>>>>>>> that, these
>>>>>>>>> days, he restricts himself to a few lines of Sir David Minnay's
>>>>>>>> exquisite
>>>>>>>>> translations from the Ancient Persian, but even so, this is
>>>>>>>> really only
>>>>>>>>> because Davie is a grand-nephew...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And yet, cultural establishments exist (it is better not to
>>>>>>>> think only of
>>>>>>>>> poetry); they are much better exemplified by the Institution
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> by mass
>>>>>>>>> structures than by the supposed individuals concerned: e.g. in
>>>>>>>> this case
>>>>>>>>> schools, colleges, newspapers, radio programmes, prizes,
>>>>>>>> societies,
>>>>>>>>> diplomatic exchanges, tourism hotspots... They exist and their
>>>>>>>> patterns
>>>>>>>>> persist, like social classes, in spite of all the individuals
>>>>>>>> who decry
>>>>>>>>> social class or prefer never to mention it. They persist like
>>>>>>>> the morale of
>>>>>>>>> sick institutions, exemplified by no single employee yet hugely
>>>>>>>> resistant to
>>>>>>>>> transformation. The outsider's view, as so often, is the
>>>>>>>> perception that
>>>>>>>>> must be silenced if it can't be dimmed. And the response to the
>>>>>>>>> outsider -( "but you don't understand, if only you could
>>>>>>>>> meet...
>>>>>>>> you would
>>>>>>>>> soon see... etc etc")- itself manifests the effective though
>>>>>>>> invisible
>>>>>>>>> self-defence of the establishment.
>>>>>>>>
>> Tilla Brading
>> Shiplap (Flat 2)
>> 43, Quay St
>> Minehead,
>> TA24 5UL
>>
>> 01643 708160
>>
Tilla Brading
Shiplap (Flat 2)
43, Quay St
Minehead,
TA24 5UL
01643 708160
|
