at a tangent ....the effect of the verb affect as a noun is effective?
Tilla
On 16 Jan 2012, at 21:55, Mark Weiss wrote:
> Jamie: You do know that I'm partly joking around? Affect tends to get
> lost on email, largely because we're mostly strangers to each
> other--the same notes sent between friends are usually understood.
>
> There are however real issues. It would be nice if the limited
> resources in the kitty were spread around a bit better. It would also
> be nice not to be treated as if invisible.
>
> Let me add that as a Jew my affection for pork knows no bounds. Add to
> its native savor the lure of the exotic and the dangers of sin and
> you'll get my drift.
>
> Best,
>
> Mark
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mark Weiss
>> Sent: Jan 16, 2012 4:24 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a “poetry
>> establishment”
>>
>> The trough could be the beggar's banquet, where there's only crumbs
>> and everybody fights over them. Noblesse oblige doesn't apply.
>>
>> I was trying to be nice, but it's not always easy.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Jamie McKendrick
>>> Sent: Jan 16, 2012 2:58 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a “poetry
>>> establishment”
>>>
>>>
>>> A pretty miniscule trough, it has to be said. And "the pig", well,
>>> it doesn't exactly re-inforce your earlier statement that "it's fine
>>> to be a member of the mainstream."
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Mark Weiss
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:35 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a
>>>> “poetry establishment”
>>>>
>>>> One does feel for the pig at the trough.
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: JAMIE MCK
>>>>> Sent: Jan 16, 2012 7:51 AM
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a
>>>>> “poetry establishment”
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, but sometimes it must be hard for those mainstreamers to
>>>>> occupy the political, the moral and the aesthetic low ground.
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Jamie
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sun, 15/1/12, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a
>>>>>> “poetry establishment”
>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> Date: Sunday, 15 January, 2012, 22:11
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's fine to be a member of the mainstream. But a mark of that
>>>>>> membership is often the denial that a non-mainstream exists, and
>>>>>> that's not fine. In the US, and I think in Britain and Ireland as
>>>>>> well, you may have noticed that those in the non-mainstream
>>>>>> generally recognize the names of the more important mainstream
>>>>>> poets, have even read them, but the reverse is often not the
>>>>>> case--I've had the experience of mentioning Oppen or Spicer and
>>>>>> being greeted with blank stares, this from people
>>>>>> university-certified as poets. Mention Randolph Healy or Peter
>>>>>> Manson in mainstream circles and see what you get.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> >From: Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> >Sent: Jan 15, 2012 3:37 PM
>>>>>> >To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> >Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a
>>>>>> “poetry establishment”
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >I found Michael’s foray into the Swedish detective genre
>>>>>> entertaining, and
>>>>>> >particularly liked his rheumy-eyed, old string-puller with a
>>>>>> taste for
>>>>>> >Persian classics. But from then on his account becomes
>>>>>> unrecognizable. I
>>>>>> >wouldn’t quarrel – who would? – with his first proposition (‘And
>>>>>> yet,
>>>>>> >cultural establishments exist’) but with the way he goes on to
>>>>>> describe
>>>>>> >them: ‘like social classes....like the morale of sick
>>>>>> institutions’. Once
>>>>>> >these analogies are accepted – and, as Chris Hamilton Emery’s
>>>>>> note suggests,
>>>>>> >we all tend to think the establishment isn’t us – then ‘the
>>>>>> outsider’
>>>>>> >becomes the untainted figure whose perception is being
>>>>>> suppressed and
>>>>>> >‘silenced, if it can’t be dimmed’. Here we have the "mainstream"
>>>>>> as a
>>>>>> >tottering Arab dictatorship.
>>>>>> > The imagined ‘response to the outsider-( "but you don't
>>>>>> understand, if
>>>>>> >only you could meet... you would soon see... etc
>>>>>> etc")...manifests the
>>>>>> >effective though invisible self-defence of the establishment.’
>>>>>> Hardly that
>>>>>> >effective: such feeble pleading wouldn’t really be the manner of
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> >establishment that, as Mark argues, ‘holds most of the power’. I
>>>>>> think by
>>>>>> >this stage we’ve moved into Fantasyland - a fantasy which
>>>>>> flatters the
>>>>>> >integrity of the writer by assuming the lack of it among others
>>>>>> writers
>>>>>> >perceived to be more centrally placed.
>>>>>> > Having been described on this list, without any apparent
>>>>>> malice, as an
>>>>>> >‘insider’ by someone whom I’d consider just as much an insider –
>>>>>> or an
>>>>>> >outsider – as myself, I’m inclined to agree with Chris’s sense
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> >indeterminacy and relativity of the term. At what point does
>>>>>> somebody cease
>>>>>> >to be an outsider? When they are published by a bigger press?
>>>>>> When they
>>>>>> >receive reviews from newspapers? When they write for the
>>>>>> newspapers? When
>>>>>> >they have an institutional teaching post? When they start
>>>>>> writing reviews of
>>>>>> >their nephew’s translations from the Persian?
>>>>>> >Best,
>>>>>> >Jamie
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> >From: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> >To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> >Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 11:58 AM
>>>>>> >Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a
>>>>>> “poetry
>>>>>> >establishment”
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >A familiar chapter in any Bildungsroman, when the hero begins to
>>>>>> pierce the
>>>>>> >outer layers of the establishment only to to find its centre
>>>>>> constantly
>>>>>> >shrinking and moving away, - to find that no-one including of
>>>>>> course
>>>>>> >himself is ever part of what once (from outside) seemed so
>>>>>> monolithic and
>>>>>> >solid. We chase it down, and after many Proustian penetrations
>>>>>> eventually
>>>>>> >reduce it to (Stieg Larsson-style) a single mild, old and
>>>>>> terminally-ill
>>>>>> >gentleman who views us through milky ice-blue eyes and murmurs
>>>>>> that, these
>>>>>> >days, he restricts himself to a few lines of Sir David Minnay's
>>>>>> exquisite
>>>>>> >translations from the Ancient Persian, but even so, this is
>>>>>> really only
>>>>>> >because Davie is a grand-nephew...
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >And yet, cultural establishments exist (it is better not to
>>>>>> think only of
>>>>>> >poetry); they are much better exemplified by the Institution and
>>>>>> by mass
>>>>>> >structures than by the supposed individuals concerned: e.g. in
>>>>>> this case
>>>>>> >schools, colleges, newspapers, radio programmes, prizes,
>>>>>> societies,
>>>>>> >diplomatic exchanges, tourism hotspots... They exist and their
>>>>>> patterns
>>>>>> >persist, like social classes, in spite of all the individuals
>>>>>> who decry
>>>>>> >social class or prefer never to mention it. They persist like
>>>>>> the morale of
>>>>>> >sick institutions, exemplified by no single employee yet hugely
>>>>>> resistant to
>>>>>> >transformation. The outsider's view, as so often, is the
>>>>>> perception that
>>>>>> >must be silenced if it can't be dimmed. And the response to the
>>>>>> >outsider -( "but you don't understand, if only you could meet...
>>>>>> you would
>>>>>> >soon see... etc etc")- itself manifests the effective though
>>>>>> invisible
>>>>>> >self-defence of the establishment.
>>>>>>
Tilla Brading
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