Sorry Tilla, I didn't mean to offend. Tone is impossible in email.
-----Original Message-----
>From: tilla Brading <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Jan 22, 2012 5:10 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a “poetry establishment”
>
>...I probably knew that even if not the centuries,
>Tilla
>
>
>On 21 Jan 2012, at 15:41, Mark Weiss wrote:
>
>> Tilla: It's been a noun since a couple of centuries before it became a
>> verb and is still common in medical usage and in certain kinds of
>> criticism. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/affect.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: tilla Brading <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Jan 21, 2012 7:00 AM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a “poetry
>>> establishment”
>>>
>>> at a tangent ....the effect of the verb affect as a noun is effective?
>>> Tilla
>>>
>>> On 16 Jan 2012, at 21:55, Mark Weiss wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jamie: You do know that I'm partly joking around? Affect tends to get
>>>> lost on email, largely because we're mostly strangers to each
>>>> other--the same notes sent between friends are usually understood.
>>>>
>>>> There are however real issues. It would be nice if the limited
>>>> resources in the kitty were spread around a bit better. It would also
>>>> be nice not to be treated as if invisible.
>>>>
>>>> Let me add that as a Jew my affection for pork knows no bounds. Add
>>>> to
>>>> its native savor the lure of the exotic and the dangers of sin and
>>>> you'll get my drift.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Mark Weiss
>>>>> Sent: Jan 16, 2012 4:24 PM
>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a “poetry
>>>>> establishment”
>>>>>
>>>>> The trough could be the beggar's banquet, where there's only crumbs
>>>>> and everybody fights over them. Noblesse oblige doesn't apply.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was trying to be nice, but it's not always easy.
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Jamie McKendrick
>>>>>> Sent: Jan 16, 2012 2:58 PM
>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a
>>>>>> “poetry
>>>>>> establishment”
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A pretty miniscule trough, it has to be said. And "the pig", well,
>>>>>> it doesn't exactly re-inforce your earlier statement that "it's
>>>>>> fine
>>>>>> to be a member of the mainstream."
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Mark Weiss
>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:35 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a
>>>>>>> “poetry establishment”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One does feel for the pig at the trough.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: JAMIE MCK
>>>>>>>> Sent: Jan 16, 2012 7:51 AM
>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a
>>>>>>>> “poetry establishment”
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah, but sometimes it must be hard for those mainstreamers to
>>>>>>>> occupy the political, the moral and the aesthetic low ground.
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> Jamie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --- On Sun, 15/1/12, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a
>>>>>>>>> “poetry establishment”
>>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>> Date: Sunday, 15 January, 2012, 22:11
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's fine to be a member of the mainstream. But a mark of that
>>>>>>>>> membership is often the denial that a non-mainstream exists, and
>>>>>>>>> that's not fine. In the US, and I think in Britain and Ireland
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> well, you may have noticed that those in the non-mainstream
>>>>>>>>> generally recognize the names of the more important mainstream
>>>>>>>>> poets, have even read them, but the reverse is often not the
>>>>>>>>> case--I've had the experience of mentioning Oppen or Spicer and
>>>>>>>>> being greeted with blank stares, this from people
>>>>>>>>> university-certified as poets. Mention Randolph Healy or Peter
>>>>>>>>> Manson in mainstream circles and see what you get.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Jan 15, 2012 3:37 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a
>>>>>>>>> “poetry establishment”
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I found Michael’s foray into the Swedish detective genre
>>>>>>>>> entertaining, and
>>>>>>>>>> particularly liked his rheumy-eyed, old string-puller with a
>>>>>>>>> taste for
>>>>>>>>>> Persian classics. But from then on his account becomes
>>>>>>>>> unrecognizable. I
>>>>>>>>>> wouldn’t quarrel – who would? – with his first proposition
>>>>>>>>>> (‘And
>>>>>>>>> yet,
>>>>>>>>>> cultural establishments exist’) but with the way he goes on to
>>>>>>>>> describe
>>>>>>>>>> them: ‘like social classes....like the morale of sick
>>>>>>>>> institutions’. Once
>>>>>>>>>> these analogies are accepted – and, as Chris Hamilton Emery’s
>>>>>>>>> note suggests,
>>>>>>>>>> we all tend to think the establishment isn’t us – then ‘the
>>>>>>>>> outsider’
>>>>>>>>>> becomes the untainted figure whose perception is being
>>>>>>>>> suppressed and
>>>>>>>>>> ‘silenced, if it can’t be dimmed’. Here we have the
>>>>>>>>>> "mainstream"
>>>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>>> tottering Arab dictatorship.
>>>>>>>>>> The imagined ‘response to the outsider-( "but you don't
>>>>>>>>> understand, if
>>>>>>>>>> only you could meet... you would soon see... etc
>>>>>>>>> etc")...manifests the
>>>>>>>>>> effective though invisible self-defence of the establishment.’
>>>>>>>>> Hardly that
>>>>>>>>>> effective: such feeble pleading wouldn’t really be the manner
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>> establishment that, as Mark argues, ‘holds most of the power’.
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> think by
>>>>>>>>>> this stage we’ve moved into Fantasyland - a fantasy which
>>>>>>>>> flatters the
>>>>>>>>>> integrity of the writer by assuming the lack of it among others
>>>>>>>>> writers
>>>>>>>>>> perceived to be more centrally placed.
>>>>>>>>>> Having been described on this list, without any apparent
>>>>>>>>> malice, as an
>>>>>>>>>> ‘insider’ by someone whom I’d consider just as much an insider
>>>>>>>>>> –
>>>>>>>>> or an
>>>>>>>>>> outsider – as myself, I’m inclined to agree with Chris’s sense
>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>> indeterminacy and relativity of the term. At what point does
>>>>>>>>> somebody cease
>>>>>>>>>> to be an outsider? When they are published by a bigger press?
>>>>>>>>> When they
>>>>>>>>>> receive reviews from newspapers? When they write for the
>>>>>>>>> newspapers? When
>>>>>>>>>> they have an institutional teaching post? When they start
>>>>>>>>> writing reviews of
>>>>>>>>>> their nephew’s translations from the Persian?
>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>> Jamie
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 11:58 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Chris Hamilton Emery on the elusive nature of a
>>>>>>>>> “poetry
>>>>>>>>>> establishment”
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A familiar chapter in any Bildungsroman, when the hero begins
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> pierce the
>>>>>>>>>> outer layers of the establishment only to to find its centre
>>>>>>>>> constantly
>>>>>>>>>> shrinking and moving away, - to find that no-one including of
>>>>>>>>> course
>>>>>>>>>> himself is ever part of what once (from outside) seemed so
>>>>>>>>> monolithic and
>>>>>>>>>> solid. We chase it down, and after many Proustian penetrations
>>>>>>>>> eventually
>>>>>>>>>> reduce it to (Stieg Larsson-style) a single mild, old and
>>>>>>>>> terminally-ill
>>>>>>>>>> gentleman who views us through milky ice-blue eyes and murmurs
>>>>>>>>> that, these
>>>>>>>>>> days, he restricts himself to a few lines of Sir David Minnay's
>>>>>>>>> exquisite
>>>>>>>>>> translations from the Ancient Persian, but even so, this is
>>>>>>>>> really only
>>>>>>>>>> because Davie is a grand-nephew...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And yet, cultural establishments exist (it is better not to
>>>>>>>>> think only of
>>>>>>>>>> poetry); they are much better exemplified by the Institution
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> by mass
>>>>>>>>>> structures than by the supposed individuals concerned: e.g. in
>>>>>>>>> this case
>>>>>>>>>> schools, colleges, newspapers, radio programmes, prizes,
>>>>>>>>> societies,
>>>>>>>>>> diplomatic exchanges, tourism hotspots... They exist and their
>>>>>>>>> patterns
>>>>>>>>>> persist, like social classes, in spite of all the individuals
>>>>>>>>> who decry
>>>>>>>>>> social class or prefer never to mention it. They persist like
>>>>>>>>> the morale of
>>>>>>>>>> sick institutions, exemplified by no single employee yet hugely
>>>>>>>>> resistant to
>>>>>>>>>> transformation. The outsider's view, as so often, is the
>>>>>>>>> perception that
>>>>>>>>>> must be silenced if it can't be dimmed. And the response to the
>>>>>>>>>> outsider -( "but you don't understand, if only you could
>>>>>>>>>> meet...
>>>>>>>>> you would
>>>>>>>>>> soon see... etc etc")- itself manifests the effective though
>>>>>>>>> invisible
>>>>>>>>>> self-defence of the establishment.
>>>>>>>>>
>>> Tilla Brading
>>> Shiplap (Flat 2)
>>> 43, Quay St
>>> Minehead,
>>> TA24 5UL
>>>
>>> 01643 708160
>>>
>Tilla Brading
>Shiplap (Flat 2)
>43, Quay St
>Minehead,
>TA24 5UL
>
>01643 708160
|