medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Both Graham and John have raised different but equally valid points
about this sticky term. And Andrew's comment about "pagan" meaning
"country-dweller" calls to mind Jesuit attempts in the 17th century to
extirpate "paganism" in thoroughly Christianized regions such as
Brittany. The real problem with the word, in my view, is not what it
represents, which is certainly reductive in the extreme, but that it
comes with a built-in negative value judgement which automatically
aligns the user of the word ideologically in a way which may not be
intended. And as for the noble goal of trying to get undergraduate
students to appreciate nuance in words, all I can say is: good luck!
Cheers,
Jim
On 21/12/2011 11:41 AM, Andrew Larsen wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> I prefer 'polytheist' to 'pagan'. 'Polytheist' is a fairly technical term, whereas 'pagan' is much muddier, since it really means 'country-dweller'. It's a term that monotheists use to label those they dislike religiously. Medieval Spanish Christians liked to apply it Muslims (that's the origin of the term 'paynim'). So it's not a term that a person might use to define him- or herself, whereas 'polytheist' might be (or at least reflects something such a person would probably accept about him- or herself).
> Additionally, I don't think students actually know what the word means. To most of my students, it just means someone who is not properly Christian. Earlier this semester I had a chat with a colleague who said that her students used 'pagan' and 'heretic' interchangeably, despite the words have no meaning in common.
> I also tend to emphasize that polytheism is not just monotheism with more gods, but rather a completely different way of looking at the universe.
>
> Andrew E. Larsen
> Marquette University
>
> On Dec 21, 2011, at 11:32 AM, Kurt Sherry wrote:
>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>
>> I find that the term "pagan" is useful as a word students already know--and then I throw in a caveat about how I'm using the word (advisedly, precisely because of the more recent connotations). Usually, I will use a term like "pre-Christian," particularly in reference to a political/cultural identity (e.g., "pre-Christian Rome" referring to Roman society in the period before--take your pick--Constantine the Great or Theodosios or "pre-Christian Ireland" to refer to the period before the Irish had become predominantly Christian). Polytheistic is problematic for all of the reasons pointed out: the existence on non-Judeo-Christian monotheisms, the fact that a lot of "pagan" Romans were really not polytheists (esp. the Epicureans and Neoplatonists, for example), and the fact that there were so many different polytheisms).
>>
>> I don't think we have a good alternative to such terminology (at least in English). One of the nice things about being the instructor is YOU get to choose a term and define it for the course. I usually take some time to explain to my students what I mean by the term, why I'm using that particular definition, and what the problems and weaknesses in the definition that I'm using are. It makes for a good discussion about the limits of language, the thought processes involved in academic study, and pedagogy. Such a discussion also covers your toochas if anyone wants to complain about the term you choose. Admittedly, given the age of my students, I have to be much more basic than most of you.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Dillon
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 10:46 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: [M-R] 'Pagan' (WAS: Re: [M-R] Summer university in Budapest 2012 Polemos/Pulmus: Ways of Confrontation in Judaism, Paganism and Christianity in Late Antiquity)
>>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>>
>> On 12/21/11, Graham Jones wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> No absolution needed - since the title of the course raises an issue that extends through the medieval period, and indeed to the present day, in relation to treatment of the Other - namely the use of the P word
>>>
>>> in our Judeo-Christocentric discourse. Some day (if only in my lifetime but I doubt it) someone with the intellect and persuasion to make a difference will begin to get the academy to use the P word in its proper sense (as referring to Judeo-Christian rejection
>>>
>>> of the Other) and not as a catch-all term for any religion which is not one of the 'universal' faiths.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I refuse to use the P word when I'm teaching, on the basis that lumping together the non-J/C religions has no utility in trying to make sense of past societies - other than to highlight our ignorance and their antipathies.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Dear Graham,
>>
>> Classicists now frequently use 'polytheist' as a substitute for 'pagan'. But this ignores the existence in antiquity of non-J/C monotheisms. And, of course, not all those who pragmatically accepted the gods of the Roman state will have had identical or even closely related belief systems. At least for Hellenistic and Roman-empire antiquity, when we have cities and larger territories inhabited by adherents of more than one non-J/C faith, some sort of umbrella term is called for. How do you refer in teaching to non-J/C religions in areas where more than one of these co-existed at the time to which you have reference and when it's not possible to speak solely of a single one of these?
>>
>> Best,
>> John Dillon
>>
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