Remembering that in this case the software supplier is in effect EH in partnership with exeGesIS, since EH own the Thesaurus Module in HBSMR and control its development. This should reassure Ken and all other HBSMR users that they will be "in the loop".
I'm sure we will be discussing this together soon (EH and exeGesIS, with User Group consultation), i.e. how and when to make any changes in the HBSMR Thesaurus module to talk to EHKOS, with what practical outcomes.
Obviously between us we shall make sure HBSMR users are the first to benefit from any improvements; and we'll also need to make sure that any proposed changes do bring real benefits without disadvantages. The existing system works extremely well, and took quite a while to get right. It allows HERs to keep in sync with the latest national terminology, while also using local and candidate terms.
There are (as things stand) no changes to the thesaurus module included in the HBSMR version 4 development plan, except to extend the use of the existing mechanisms into the Events/Activities module.
hope this helps
Crispin
________________________________
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records on behalf of CARLISLE, Philip
Sent: Tue 25/10/2011 13:15
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Model farm question
Hi Ken,
Obviously any software suppliers who currently make our thesauri available will have to develop mechanisms to use the web services.
Phil
Phil Carlisle
Data Standards Supervisor
Data Standards Unit, Designations Department
English Heritage
The Engine House
Fire Fly Avenue
Swindon
SN2 2EH
Tel: +44 (0)1793 414824
http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/
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From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Davies, Ken
Sent: 25 October 2011 12:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Model farm question
Dear Phil
How's this going to work in HBSMR?
Ken
Ken Davies
Planning Officer (HER)
Lancashire County Council
PO Box 100
County Hall
Preston PR1 0LD
01772 531513
[log in to unmask]
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of CARLISLE, Philip
Sent: 25 October 2011 12:28
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Model farm question
Hi all,
Blimey sounds like someone actually listens to stuff I ramble on about!
Sylvina is spot on.
I apologize in advance that the following won't win any Plain English society awards. Anyway here goes...
EHKOS, or to give it its full name, English Heritage Knowledge Organization System is being developed to replace our somewhat outdated NMR Thesauri webpages.
Phase 1 was completed in 2006 but then the project while resources were put into developing the Unified Designation System/National Heritage List for England.
EHKOS was, and indeed is, intended to provide a 'bucket of concepts' rather than the thesauri we are all currently using.
The idea is that instead of have a 'term' such as 'ROOT STORE' we would have a 'concept identifier' such as '1234'. This can then be assigned as many 'labels' (read 'terms') as is deemed fit, whether they be local, dialectal or even foreign language. These concept identifiers will become Persistent Uniform Resource Identifiers (PURIs), such as www.heritage.data.gov.uk/1234 (this is only an example) which can be inserted directly into databases in the place of the term. This means (I think?) that anyone can store their local label in their database but when it is shared with others they would be able to store their local label without needing to change their data, because they're both pointing at the concept not the label
So the concept witll be defined by its definition (well der!) and anyone can then say "Ah, I see that 1234 is defined as 'A room or building for storing roots and tubers for use as fodder'. Down here we call that a Wurzel shed and as such I shall add this useful label to the concept and thus enhance this excellent sectoral resource".
As a result anyone searching on any of the labels will retrieve records indexed with all the other labels (as their database will store the PURI).
As well as providing all the current terms as PURIs, EHKOS (or HKOS as it will hopefully become when the UK-wide Thesaurus of Cultural Heritage project kicks off) will allow registered users to submit candidate concepts and labels directly into the bucket of concepts. It will even (hopefully!) allow users to build their own wordlists/thesauri and store them in one place for use by all.
As yet it is very much a work in progress but eventually it will mean that using such mechanisms as Web Services, SKOS outputs, XML and other fancy stuff, we will be able to allow databases to draw the latest versions directly from the online service without the need for re-indexing.
Anyway that's the plan and it's still a way off but hopefully we can all see the benefits in having a national resource focusing on accessible terminology and interoperability.
Phil
Phil Carlisle
Data Standards Supervisor
Data Standards Unit, Designations Department
English Heritage
The Engine House
Fire Fly Avenue
Swindon
SN2 2EH
Tel: +44 (0)1793 414824
http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/
The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it from your system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to anyone else or copied without the sender's consent.
Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage. English Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
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From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sylvina Tilbury
Sent: 25 October 2011 11:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Model farm question
Hi Vince
We have a similar issue up here, as I'm sure everyone does in their various parts of the country. Where there is a particular local term in popular use I will often create a new term in our system and then double index the record with that and the official version. (If it's an existing non-preferred term it is possible to create it anyway with a bit of cheating). You may do something similar?
My understanding is that work is ongoing to address this very issue with EHKOS and the "semantic web" and all kinds of work being done by people cleverer than me. I think the intention is that people will be able to map their local terms to the equivalent "official" term and searches for any of the mapped terms will return results for all the others as well. Or something like that. Hopefully Philip Carlisle will explain.
Cheers
Sylvina
Sylvina Tilbury | HER Officer | Historic Environment Team
Planning & Development Service | Highland Council |Glenurquhart Road | Inverness | IV3 5NX
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-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Vince Russett
Sent: 25 October 2011 11:46
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Model farm question
Morning, chums
This does raise an issue that has caused me concern in the past. We have agreed national thesauri, and that is presumably A Good Thing: however, it can raise problems when there are well-known local terms that are still in use, and we need to be aware of this issue. Were a farmer from (say) Kingston Seymour to refer to his 'root house', I would know what he meant: a room for storing roots. However, would anyone without a local agricultural background understand that he didn't mean 'an ornate folly built of tree roots'? By context perhaps.
We have an issue in this area in the use of the term 'ridge-and-vurrow'. This non-existent phrase has entered the archaeological literature, and has been quoted at me in some desk-top studies (leaving aside the fact that what was being described was drainage features - gripes and bends, locally). This isn't a trivial issue: consider 'pillow mounds', which at the time archaeologists were puzzling what they were, were still in use in some areas of the West Country, and called by the name they had enjoyed for hundreds of years, 'rabbit buries'.
I just feel a bit uneasy about these issues: we encourage our developers to use local field names in developments (although they did draw the line at naming roads after fields called 'Harse' and 'Grumblepill' J), and to promote the use of traditional names for areas within North Somerset: 'The Northmarsh' not the meaningless 'North Somerset Levels', 'Mendip', not the tautological 'Mendip Hills', 'Broadfield Down', not 'the hill where Bristol airport is'.
Sorry, this is a local man sounding off about local issues, but there is a background issue here we need to keep in mind.
Phew, that's better!
Vince
Vince Russett
County Archaeologist
Development Management Group
North Somerset Council
Our Historic Environment Record is now on-line: Go to the North Somerset web site (http://www.n-somerset.gov.uk <http://www.n-somerset.gov.uk/> ) then use the tabs Environment / Conservation / Archaeology/ Historic Environment Record. Enjoy!
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________________________________
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Giggins
Sent: 25 October 2011 11:25
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Model farm question
The term 'Root House' is used by A. Dudley Clarke, FSI in his 1891 publication "Farm Buildings, their construction and arrangement".
P.46 "The requirements of a good root house are very simple. There should be a pair of doors eight feet wide, high enough to admit a loaded cart; a strong and fairly smooth floor; the back and side walls should be free from door or other openings, so that the roots may be piled high against them."
"A fodder store ... is intended for the best hay"
I would therefore query whether "Root Store" should be used if this was not the traditional term for this element of farmsteads?
Regards
Brian Giggins
On 25 October 2011 10:11, CARLISLE, Philip <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Dear all,
Can I caution against the use of ROOT HOUSE for FODDER STORE.
The thesaurus of Monument Types refers to a ROOT HOUSE as a picturesque garden building incorporating roots and tree stumps. This is a recognized type of garden building.
The TMT has Root Room as a non-preferred term of FODDER STORE and we'd be happy to add ROOT STORE as a narrower term.
Phil
Phil Carlisle
Data Standards Supervisor
Data Standards Unit, Designations Department
English Heritage
The Engine House
Fire Fly Avenue
Swindon
SN2 2EH
Tel: +44 (0)1793 414824
http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/
The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it from your system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to anyone else or copied without the sender's consent.
Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage. English Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the author.
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From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Iles, Peter
Sent: 24 October 2011 13:50
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Model farm question
A Cutting House is, as said by others, for chopping and combining stuff to make up animal feed. Often root crops, but cattle cake sometimes needed to be cut, and there was a 'chaff cutter' that was used to add hay/bran, etc. in.
See http://www.geograph.ie/photo/651955 and http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/archive/yet-another-project...__o_t__t_30367.html
One is a simple hand-powered machine, the other a rather larger item, which has a hole in the flywheel for a handle, but looks big enough to be fitted with a different drivewheel and be driven by an engine of some kind. I don't think you'd get a belt to stay on the wheel as shown.
Some way down the thread http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=1089.0 is a picture of a Bamford root cutter, - definitely designed to be driven by an engine.
All you wanted to know about chaff cutters is at http://www.antiquefarmtools.info/page2.htm
Peter Iles
Specialist Advisor (Archaeology)
Lancashire County Council
Development Management
PO Box 100
County Hall
Preston
PR1 0LD
t.01772 531550
e. [log in to unmask]
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert White
Sent: 24 October 2011 13:33
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Model farm question
Root store - basically for root crops - turnips, swedes, mangle wurzels etc - These were also stored in clamps and sometimes eaten directly in the field. Introduced mainly as cattle fodder but also for sheep - think Turnip Townshend who was perhaps primarily responsible for the intoduction of a four crop rotation in the eighteenth century and avoiding the need for fields to be kept fallow to maintain fertility.
A cutting house may have been used to chop roots and mix them with other foodstuffs prior to their being fed to cattle.
Robert White
Senior Historic Environment Officer
Yorkshire Dales National Park Authority
Yoredale, Bainbridge, Leyburn,
North Yorkshire DL8 3EL
Tel: 0300 456 0030
Direct Line: 01969 652360
Fax: 01756 751699
eMail: [log in to unmask]
www.yorkshiredales.org.uk <http://www.yorkshiredales.org.uk/>
www.outofoblivion.org.uk <http://www.outofoblivion.org.uk/>
________________________________
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sarah Poppy
Sent: 24 October 2011 13:09
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Model farm question
Hi all
Anyone got an insights as to what a root house and cutting house would specifically used for in a model farm context? I am guessing rooms for doing something with cuttings & roots!
We have a 'root house' in the family farm buildings back home, which was always used to hang onions & store potatoes when I was little, but have no idea as to whether this was the original purpose or where the name came from.
Thanks in advance
Sarah
****************************************
Sarah Poppy
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Suffolk County Council
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Bury St Edmunds
Suffolk
IP33 2AR
tel: 01284 741226
email: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
www: www.suffolk.gov.uk/Environment/Archaeology/ <http://www.suffolk.gov.uk/Environment/Archaeology/>
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