Usually, arguing about topics like that is useless. It is known that
beliefs held up to age 18 are often permanent, and Catholic education is
an expert at brainwashing. I enjoyed Catholic education, but at age 10
I realised that what those priests were telling me was not only idiotic
but quite obnoxious: we are born bad, and we had to listen to the
absurd and sadistic tale of a god father sending his "son" to liberate
his creatures on earth (which, by the way, he had lured into 'sin') and
to be tortured to death. And some of these priests enjoyed telling us
shocked kids about all the details of a brutal form of a Roman
execution. My father (educated by the Jesuits) was a Catholic until late
in his life, but he told me that religion was the biggest mistake of his
life.
By the way, Dario Fo did a good job getting Italian society out of the
clutches of the Vatican.
Alexander Hellemans
On Fri, 02 Sep 2011 10:02 +0200, "Federica Sgorbissa"
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
an embryo is not a child, please
Il 02/09/11 09.57, Alessio Bernardelli ha scritto:
Hi Federica,
I certainly agree with you that she should not have been
contacted by a private institution, but guidance should be part
of the process before and after an abortion by the institution
providing the "service" and it should be a balanced guidance.
I believe it is vital to give Doctors the right to refuse to
perform an abortion. After all, if their belief is that they are
committing murder by aborting a baby, you would force them to
become murderers in their conscience! Wouldn't that cause
psychological problems in these affected Doctors? It is worse
than denying "Obiezione Di Coscienza" to people who didn't want
to do Military Service in Italy when it was still compulsory,
because it would be like forcing someone to perform an act which
goes against their beliefs and moral convictions. These things
happen in Dictatorships, not in a Democracy!
Alessio.
Sent from my iPhone
On 2 Sep 2011, at 08:18, Federica Sgorbissa
<[1][log in to unmask]> wrote:
A girl I know went through abortion (in italy). In the period
before the procedure she was contacted on the phone (mobile!) by
this catholic association called "centro di aiuto per la vita":
they asked her to give up her decision and keep the baby. She is
an atheist, she never gave permission to anyone to divulgate her
phone number (especially to a private association). And yes of
course it was a hard time for her, and these people made her feel
like if she was violeted. How could they dare to get into such a
private issue with a person they don't know and that never asked
for help? Is this what you call the message of hope and
redemption? This thing I'm describing is very common in italy,
and there are also many medician in public hospitals that refuse
to practice abortion (a legal procedure which is precisely
regulated by the law in italy) . Statitics say that in some
regions you have something like 80% of medician refusing.
And yes it's an hard decision to have an abortion. and you should
think carfully about that. But blame is very widespread in
hospitals, and in sociaty (especially from men, who will never
have and abortion direcly on their skin) and blame doesn't help.
Education on prevention is what works. But the church, at least
in Italy doesn't want kids to have proper sexual education.
sorry for my bad english
federica
Il 02/09/11 08.47, Alessio Bernardelli ha scritto:
I don't know the details of the tragic event you refer to and I
am sorry to read about what seems to have been a really traumatic
experience in your life, but generalizing on the account of
individual experiences is seldom a true reflection of reality! It
is dangerous as it can lead to rush conclusions and decisions not
based on the evidence of a larger sample. So, I don't believe my
comment was naive. Besides, I was talking about the fact that it
is very unlikely that the majority of women having an abortion
can go through it lightly and without being affected
psychologically. The choices and considerations involved are
massive and no human being can just brush them under the carpet
without giving it a second thought. Believing that would be
naive.
Also, I suspect that women deciding to have an abortion are
unlikely to be convicted Christian, so if they don't agree with
the values taught by the Bible in the first place, why should
they be affected by them?
Abortion is a really complex issue and when a woman decides to
make that step she should be advised of the weight this could
have in her future life! Telling her everything will be alright,
or making her believe that the possible doubts and mental health
problems she might have are just a result of the "culture of
guilt" from which she need to emancipate, would be cruel and not
based on evidence to justify doing so.
The Christian message is one of hope and redemption, not of
guilt. So, the event you refer to does definitely not reflect the
beliefs and practices of the majority of Christian circles!
Alessio.
Sent from my iPhone
On 2 Sep 2011, at 06:39, James Thomas <[2][log in to unmask]>
wrote:
Sorry Alessio,
Having witnessed the effect the 'culture of guilt' can have on
the young people in a community, namely that the lonely death of
a young girl in a field was preferable to the 'eternal' fire of
an as yet unproven hell, I would say that your last comment was
at the least, naive.
On 1 Sep 2011 18:57, "Alessio Bernardelli"
<[3][log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Whatever the stats are, I seriously doubt that the majority of
women who go through an abortion are completely unaffected!
However you want to present it, it remains the conscious decision
to get rid of a child and blaming the consequences of this
decision on the "culture of guilt" created by Christian
institutions is to say the least unreasonable.
>
> Alessio.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 1 Sep 2011, at 14:35, David Waldock
<[4][log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> I imagine that, similar to the research showing LGBT people
are more likely to commit suicide, a massive part of any actual
effect is down to groups like Christian Concern creating a
culture of guilt in the first place.
>>
>> *growl*
>>
>> D
>>
>> On 1 September 2011 14:28, Wendy Barnaby
<[5][log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> I can’t stand Christian Concern. They’ve just sent me a press
release about the Dorries/Field abortion amendment, trumpeting
some research purporting to show that abortion raises the risk of
mental health problems by 81%. See
[6]http://www.christianconcern.com/our-concerns/abortion/study-fi
nds-abortion-raises-risk-of-mental-health-problems-by-81. It
turns out, surprise surprise, that the research is severely
rickety. It’s been nicely diced at
[7]http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/page/2/?s=Coleman, on the
Ministry of Truth website. It’s not obvious to me who runs this
website. Does anybody know?
>>
>>
>>
>> Wendy
>>
>>
>>
>>
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References
1. mailto:[log in to unmask]
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6.
http://www.christianconcern.com/our-concerns/abortion/study-finds-abortion-raises-risk-of-mental-health-problems-by-81
7. http://www.ministryoftruth.me.uk/page/2/?s=Coleman
8. http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/psci-com.html
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