Hi guys,
De-lurking for a moment. Of course I ignored Suzi's succession of sour,
incoherent and ugly tirades, and the less said about that the better. I'll
just say that a person who appears incapable of figuring out how to
unsubscribe themselves from a mailing list has some nerve going on about
their superiority.
But with respect to what Stephen says about young people piping up, I don't
know if I count. I'm 40. I think that's been considered old throughout much
recorded history, but in the world of poetry for some reason I notice that's
still considered young. Anyway, speaking for myself, I came on this list at
a time when I was feeling a yen for hanging out with more poets. I'd gone
through a year or so of hanging out with writers whose overwhelming bias was
towards prose. I was a poetry editor in a huge, energetic, and pretty young
community, but one where I don't think poetry is really appreciated. I on
the other hand, would rather read poetry than novels or even essays any day
of the week.
I like this list. I do get the impression that it's an older group, but I
can't see how that matters one whit. I read many of the snaps, and there
have been some nice ones. I'm sorry I haven't been more active with my
compliments when I read those. On the whole, though, I don't think most of
the exchanges on this list match my aesthetics. I consider myself a
classicist and a formalist. I guess maybe that would astonish folks who
imagine that only an old white man could fit such descriptions, but my love
for the classical philology as well as African traditional culture and art,
and the fact that my poetic work seeks syncretism of these worlds, derives
squarely from my education in Nigeria.
As it happens I've since had a chance to meet a gratifyingly large number of
like-minded individuals elsewhere, most of them even younger than me (more
surprise!) I've found my energy directed to those places, which include
Internet forums and Facebook groups. It has been wonderful, as I've made
friends and discoveries, and found journals whose aesthetics have dovetailed
with my own, and I even started submitting poems again late last year, after
about a decade not bothering, with a pleasingly high acceptance rate. (Plug:
my latest is "Fortune of Chi", just out in Soundzine:
http://soundzine.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=287:uche-ogbuji&catid=34:poetry&Itemid=53)
But never have I had a sense that this list systematically excludes any of
that. I don't see it at all as exclusive or alienating at all. If anything,
it's a warm, open, intelligent and of course a very poetic place. My only
occasional complaint is the extent to which it seems normative to bash
modern trends and youth culture, but that's just human nature. Even if I
don't participate actively, I've never thought of unsubscribing. Maybe if I
can find time I'll try to participate more.
--Uche
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Stephen Vincent <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> Thanks for this piece, Lawrence; it's patience is more than I have. I hope
> Suzi can give it attention, as well as the rest of us, and detoxify the
> issue. In truth, the young, no matter the gender, whether explicitly or
> implicitly, will always kick at 'old pricks' - cheap shots included. I am
> sure if any us older folks look back, we did an unfair amount of that
> ourselves. It is one of the weird, often abusive but common ways the world
> moves on
> In fairness to Suzi - if this speaks to her real sense of outside-ness, if
> that's what it is - it would be great if there were more younger voices
> chirping up here and bringing their interests (minus the cheap or stupid
> shots) to the table.
>
> But Suzi, unless we're suddenly more interesting, it's also easy to quit
> the list.
>
>
> Stephen V
>
>
>
>
> --- On Tue, 8/9/11, Lawrence Upton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> From: Lawrence Upton <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: men who can use word, sound, and power
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Tuesday, August 9, 2011, 6:05 AM
>
> I recall my late friend Alaric used to tell me off for my use of _wanker_
> for people whose behaviour I disapproved of. His favourite phrase was
> "there's nothing wrong with wanking; it's the safest sex there is"
>
> The apparent simplicity was deceptive - and this was a man who got himself
> gay-bashed several times for daring to ask questions of homophobes: his
> questions were so good, and his honesty so alarming, (and sometimes the
> drag he was in so provocative to the insecure) that they resorted to the
> violence implicit in their judgments.
>
> Of course, had he lived, he would be something of an old pooter; so you
> can't actually learn anything from him.
>
> I did learn something though. Taking his injunction seriously, I learned
> how demanding it is to express coherent disdain if one does not use
> abusive language. In that, I learned how limited I am; and I have sought
> to improve myself in that and other ways. Of course, Suzi, I lack your
> innate imaginative solidity.
>
>
> *
>
> I'm not really sure what you mean when you say _my imagination is
> extremely fertile in terms of poetic produce available elsewhere_; perhaps
> english language wasn't one of your areas of study
>
> _and in my living speech every day of my life thus far._ is masturbatory
> in its admiring self-regard, whatever it means. But never mind - embrace
> the wanker in yourself, Suzi
>
> *
>
> I remember someone in a bar in Greece hectoring some Greeks - Greek men,
> actually, though I can't speak for their sperm count etc -- on their
> attitude to Turkey. This is 15 years or so ago when things were more
> tense. One of the men started to say something along the lines of _It's
> much more complex than you may think_ but she shouted him down. (That it
> was a woman is not, to me, relevant: a delusional know-it-all is a
> delusional know-it-all whatever their gender.)
>
> Really, none of the particulars matters. What does matter is her final
> assertion that she had just spent 8 weeks in Turkey so there wasn't much
> he could tell her. He had been telling her that he and his fellows wanted
> peace; but he could not forget his cousins who had been lynched, and one
> beheaded, in Smyrna. It would take a generation.
>
> I'm not sure she'd heard of Smyrna and she certainly missed his brutal
> honesty that he was being irrational; that the Greeks too had done
> terrible things and should seek forgiveness.
>
> All she knew was her belief that she understood all the issues after two
> months and was prepared and able to act on them rationally.
>
> A decade of course is far more impressive than 8 weeks; and I understand
> your pride. And I do recall how I knew how deeply I understood in its
> range, complexity, and ambiguity all factors of poetry when I had been
> studying ten years. It never occurred to me that poetry quality was
> directly related to sexual prowess and / or potency. But that rather makes
> my point. There is always more to learn.
>
> I'm in my fifth decade of conscious study of poetry and I am less and less
> sure of my certainties. So I am excited to have discovered your theories,
> Suzi Hall. Thank you for sharing them with us.
>
> Lawrence
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, August 9, 2011 03:09, Suzi Hall wrote:
> > Darling Max,
> >
> >
> > yes, I've been to uni for more than a decade, studied poetry for longer,
> > and swallowed the whole fucking (or should I say, wanking) canon of
> > English poetry too. Actually it was quite detri-mental.
> >
> >
> > Love,
> >
> >
> > anony-mouse
> >
> >
> > On 09/08/2011, at 11:26 AM, Max Richards wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Ah, there you are, Suzi.
> >> Remember I emailed a few weeks ago? -
> >>
> >>
> >> Suzi,
> >> My first encounter with Larkin's poems wasn't great either, but then
> >> several of them grew on me. Perhaps you have had the same initial
> >> experience with poetry by Frost, Hardy, Tennyson, Keats, Wordsworth,
> >> Marvell, George Herbert...
> >> These when persevered with prove rewarding in themselves, I have
> >> found, and also prepare readers for poetry of the last few decades.
> >>
> >> You probably want to recommend some reading to me to widen MY sense
> >> of the past and the present? Go ahead -
> >>
> >> Best wishes from Max R
> >>
> >>
> >> I wonder if you saw this and would care to respond.
> >>
> >>
> >> Max again
> >>
> >>
> >> On 19/05/11 6:30 PM, "Suzi Hall" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> This poetry is so conservative and boring there is no point reading
> >>> it
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 9/08/11 11:49 AM, "Suzi Hall" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> My manners are Australian, not Breetish. And my imagination is
> >>> extremely fertile in terms of poetic produce available elsewhere, and
> >>> in my living speech every day of my life thus far.
> >>>
> >>> Your 'poetry' and words are unfunny, unimaginative, boring,
> >>> conservative, sterile and barren.
> >>>
> >>> You obviously don't speak metaphor.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 09/08/2011, at 10:15 AM, Mark Weiss wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Apparently you don't speak irony. Or read your own recent messages.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Let me be straight with you--your manners are appalling. Here's a
> >>>> test--would it be ok with you if I characterized a bunch of women
> >>>> poets by the state of their fertility?
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>
> >>>>> From: Suzi Hall <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>> Sent: Aug 8, 2011 8:42 PM
> >>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>>>> Subject: Re: men who can use word, sound, and power
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't know, I've never known them personally, but that's just
> >>>>> the kind of racist and jealous-of-talent-and-relevancy comment
> >>>>> that I'd expect from you.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 09/08/2011, at 9:54 AM, Mark Weiss wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> The first two, presumably, have lots of sperm.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> From: Suzi Hall <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Aug 8, 2011 8:23 PM
> >>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: men who can use word, sound, and power
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Some men, of course, can write. For good balance and equal
> >>>>>>> rights, I suggest you try Mutabaruka and Linton Kwesi Johnson,
> >>>>>>> also Louise Bennett (not a man, and not young).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 09/08/2011, at 9:33 AM, Mark Weiss wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> A graceful way to say goodbye.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There are some very nice all-female poetry lists.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It must be wonderful to be young and female.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Mark
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> From: Suzi Hall <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Aug 8, 2011 7:43 PM
> >>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: old men's wank, as usual / men without semen
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> All you old poots are nothing but a bunch of
> >>>>>>>>> trainspotters. I'd tell you to get fucked, but I know
> >>>>>>>>> that's impossible for you old men. Instead you dribble
> >>>>>>>>> wanky words all the time.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I've never read a single good poem by a man on this
> >>>>>>>>> network - only a few decent ones by Sheila, Jill and
> >>>>>>>>> Sharon.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Quit me please.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 09/08/2011, at 8:35 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> *Toxic Assets Sonnet*
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Pedro found his reservoir of goodwill for his fellow
> >>>>>>>>>> humanoids contaminated—or tainted, if you will— by
> >>>>>>>>>> perennial and hereditary diseases. Exalted beings
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> all, they chewed their nails in anticipation of
> >>>>>>>>>> defaults and market plunges, holding onto their faith
> >>>>>>>>>> that what goes down must go up. Nervousness and its
> >>>>>>>>>> neighbor,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> panic, often had cookouts in their unforeclosed back
> >>>>>>>>>> yards. When the going gets tough, the tough broil
> >>>>>>>>>> burgers. At any other time, the heady air of despair
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> would have provided a tonic. But now, today, Main St.
> >>>>>>>>>> knows even smart Canadians cannot ride to the rescue.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Serving the tri-state area.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Hal
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Halvard Johnson
> >>>>>>>>>> ================
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
> >>>>>>>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> >>>>>>>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> >>>>>>>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
> >>>>>>>>>> <http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
> >>>>>>>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home
> >>>>>>>>>> <http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
> >>>>>>>>>> *Sonnets from the Basque & Other
> >>>>>>>>>> Poems<https://docs.google.com/document/d/16pWoy7FBSWyCLW
> >>>>>>>>>> pz0hhI-i0BOYjSB eUiqfWBmJF3g64/edit?hl=en_US
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> , Mainly
> >>>>>>>>>> Black<https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1i_JGJ_Fq
> >>>>>>>>>> QldEnUq7cwjV8gi
> >>>>>>>>>> Yykz_tsGbTkC2EkAP3IM&hl=en&pli=1
> >>>>>>>>>> #
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> , **Obras
> >>>>>>>>>> Públicas<https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/hal
> >>>>>>>>>> vard-johnson-ob ras-publicas
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
> >>>>>>>>>> Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johns
> >>>>>>>>>> on-THE-PERFECTI ON-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
> >>>>>>>>>> Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Hal
> >>>>>>>>>> vard-Johnson/dp
> >>>>>>>>>> /0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&s
> >>>>>>>>>> r=8-1
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ; **Tango
> >>>>>>>>>> Bouquet<https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0ATDp6rzKkBkhZ
> >>>>>>>>>> GZwand2cHdfOWc1
> >>>>>>>>>> Mnh3Zw&hl=en
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ; **Theory of
> >>>>>>>>>> Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpress
> >>>>>>>>>> ed.wippiespace .
> >>>>>>>>>> com/fall04/theory1.pdf
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ; **Rapsodie
> >>>>>>>>>> espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpre
> >>>>>>>>>> ssed.wippiespac e.com/rapsodi.pdf
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo
> >>>>>>>>>> Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Po
> >>>>>>>>>> ems/dp/09714873
> >>>>>>>>>> 16/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ; **The Sonnet
> >>>>>>>>>> Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpress
> >>>>>>>>>> ed.wippiespace .
> >>>>>>>>>> com/hsonnet.pdf
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/
> >>>>>>>>>> genome.pdf>; **Winter
> >>>>>>>>>> Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
> >>>>>>>>>> **Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
> >>>>>>>>>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan
> >>>>>>>>>> <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> ;
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> *
> >>>>>>>>>> *Transparencies & Projections
> >>>>>>>>>> <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> *
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >
>
>
> -----
> UNFRAMED GRAPHICS by Lawrence Upton
> 42 pages; A5 paperback; colour cover
> Writers Forum 978 1 84254 277 4
> wfuk.org.uk/blog
> ----
> Lawrence Upton
> Dept of Music
> Goldsmiths, University of London
>
--
Uche Ogbuji http://uche.ogbuji.net
Weblog: http://copia.ogbuji.net
Poetry ed @TNB: http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/uogbuji/
Founding Partner, Zepheira http://zepheira.com
Linked-in: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ucheogbuji
Articles: http://uche.ogbuji.net/tech/publications/
Friendfeed: http://friendfeed.com/uche
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|
