Thinking FaceBook, I just want to hit Like for both of these.
Here, I'll just say that I agree....
Doug
On 2011-08-09, at 11:05 AM, Stephen Vincent wrote:
> Thanks for this piece, Lawrence; it's patience is more than I have. I hope Suzi can give it attention, as well as the rest of us, and detoxify the issue. In truth, the young, no matter the gender, whether explicitly or implicitly, will always kick at 'old pricks' - cheap shots included. I am sure if any us older folks look back, we did an unfair amount of that ourselves. It is one of the weird, often abusive but common ways the world moves on
> In fairness to Suzi - if this speaks to her real sense of outside-ness, if that's what it is - it would be great if there were more younger voices chirping up here and bringing their interests (minus the cheap or stupid shots) to the table.
>
> But Suzi, unless we're suddenly more interesting, it's also easy to quit the list.
>
>
> Stephen V
>
>
>
>
> --- On Tue, 8/9/11, Lawrence Upton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> From: Lawrence Upton <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: men who can use word, sound, and power
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Tuesday, August 9, 2011, 6:05 AM
>
> I recall my late friend Alaric used to tell me off for my use of _wanker_
> for people whose behaviour I disapproved of. His favourite phrase was
> "there's nothing wrong with wanking; it's the safest sex there is"
>
> The apparent simplicity was deceptive - and this was a man who got himself
> gay-bashed several times for daring to ask questions of homophobes: his
> questions were so good, and his honesty so alarming, (and sometimes the
> drag he was in so provocative to the insecure) that they resorted to the
> violence implicit in their judgments.
>
> Of course, had he lived, he would be something of an old pooter; so you
> can't actually learn anything from him.
>
> I did learn something though. Taking his injunction seriously, I learned
> how demanding it is to express coherent disdain if one does not use
> abusive language. In that, I learned how limited I am; and I have sought
> to improve myself in that and other ways. Of course, Suzi, I lack your
> innate imaginative solidity.
>
>
> *
>
> I'm not really sure what you mean when you say _my imagination is
> extremely fertile in terms of poetic produce available elsewhere_; perhaps
> english language wasn't one of your areas of study
>
> _and in my living speech every day of my life thus far._ is masturbatory
> in its admiring self-regard, whatever it means. But never mind - embrace
> the wanker in yourself, Suzi
>
> *
>
> I remember someone in a bar in Greece hectoring some Greeks - Greek men,
> actually, though I can't speak for their sperm count etc -- on their
> attitude to Turkey. This is 15 years or so ago when things were more
> tense. One of the men started to say something along the lines of _It's
> much more complex than you may think_ but she shouted him down. (That it
> was a woman is not, to me, relevant: a delusional know-it-all is a
> delusional know-it-all whatever their gender.)
>
> Really, none of the particulars matters. What does matter is her final
> assertion that she had just spent 8 weeks in Turkey so there wasn't much
> he could tell her. He had been telling her that he and his fellows wanted
> peace; but he could not forget his cousins who had been lynched, and one
> beheaded, in Smyrna. It would take a generation.
>
> I'm not sure she'd heard of Smyrna and she certainly missed his brutal
> honesty that he was being irrational; that the Greeks too had done
> terrible things and should seek forgiveness.
>
> All she knew was her belief that she understood all the issues after two
> months and was prepared and able to act on them rationally.
>
> A decade of course is far more impressive than 8 weeks; and I understand
> your pride. And I do recall how I knew how deeply I understood in its
> range, complexity, and ambiguity all factors of poetry when I had been
> studying ten years. It never occurred to me that poetry quality was
> directly related to sexual prowess and / or potency. But that rather makes
> my point. There is always more to learn.
>
> I'm in my fifth decade of conscious study of poetry and I am less and less
> sure of my certainties. So I am excited to have discovered your theories,
> Suzi Hall. Thank you for sharing them with us.
>
> Lawrence
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, August 9, 2011 03:09, Suzi Hall wrote:
>> Darling Max,
>>
>>
>> yes, I've been to uni for more than a decade, studied poetry for longer,
>> and swallowed the whole fucking (or should I say, wanking) canon of
>> English poetry too. Actually it was quite detri-mental.
>>
>>
>> Love,
>>
>>
>> anony-mouse
>>
>>
>> On 09/08/2011, at 11:26 AM, Max Richards wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Ah, there you are, Suzi.
>>> Remember I emailed a few weeks ago? -
>>>
>>>
>>> Suzi,
>>> My first encounter with Larkin's poems wasn't great either, but then
>>> several of them grew on me. Perhaps you have had the same initial
>>> experience with poetry by Frost, Hardy, Tennyson, Keats, Wordsworth,
>>> Marvell, George Herbert...
>>> These when persevered with prove rewarding in themselves, I have
>>> found, and also prepare readers for poetry of the last few decades.
>>>
>>> You probably want to recommend some reading to me to widen MY sense
>>> of the past and the present? Go ahead -
>>>
>>> Best wishes from Max R
>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder if you saw this and would care to respond.
>>>
>>>
>>> Max again
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19/05/11 6:30 PM, "Suzi Hall" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> This poetry is so conservative and boring there is no point reading
>>>> it
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/08/11 11:49 AM, "Suzi Hall" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> My manners are Australian, not Breetish. And my imagination is
>>>> extremely fertile in terms of poetic produce available elsewhere, and
>>>> in my living speech every day of my life thus far.
>>>>
>>>> Your 'poetry' and words are unfunny, unimaginative, boring,
>>>> conservative, sterile and barren.
>>>>
>>>> You obviously don't speak metaphor.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 09/08/2011, at 10:15 AM, Mark Weiss wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Apparently you don't speak irony. Or read your own recent messages.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me be straight with you--your manners are appalling. Here's a
>>>>> test--would it be ok with you if I characterized a bunch of women
>>>>> poets by the state of their fertility?
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Suzi Hall <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> Sent: Aug 8, 2011 8:42 PM
>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> Subject: Re: men who can use word, sound, and power
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know, I've never known them personally, but that's just
>>>>>> the kind of racist and jealous-of-talent-and-relevancy comment
>>>>>> that I'd expect from you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 09/08/2011, at 9:54 AM, Mark Weiss wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The first two, presumably, have lots of sperm.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Suzi Hall <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Aug 8, 2011 8:23 PM
>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: men who can use word, sound, and power
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some men, of course, can write. For good balance and equal
>>>>>>>> rights, I suggest you try Mutabaruka and Linton Kwesi Johnson,
>>>>>>>> also Louise Bennett (not a man, and not young).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 09/08/2011, at 9:33 AM, Mark Weiss wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A graceful way to say goodbye.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are some very nice all-female poetry lists.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It must be wonderful to be young and female.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: Suzi Hall <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Aug 8, 2011 7:43 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: old men's wank, as usual / men without semen
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All you old poots are nothing but a bunch of
>>>>>>>>>> trainspotters. I'd tell you to get fucked, but I know
>>>>>>>>>> that's impossible for you old men. Instead you dribble
>>>>>>>>>> wanky words all the time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've never read a single good poem by a man on this
>>>>>>>>>> network - only a few decent ones by Sheila, Jill and
>>>>>>>>>> Sharon.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Quit me please.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 09/08/2011, at 8:35 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Toxic Assets Sonnet*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Pedro found his reservoir of goodwill for his fellow
>>>>>>>>>>> humanoids contaminated—or tainted, if you will— by
>>>>>>>>>>> perennial and hereditary diseases. Exalted beings
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> all, they chewed their nails in anticipation of
>>>>>>>>>>> defaults and market plunges, holding onto their faith
>>>>>>>>>>> that what goes down must go up. Nervousness and its
>>>>>>>>>>> neighbor,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> panic, often had cookouts in their unforeclosed back
>>>>>>>>>>> yards. When the going gets tough, the tough broil
>>>>>>>>>>> burgers. At any other time, the heady air of despair
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> would have provided a tonic. But now, today, Main St.
>>>>>>>>>>> knows even smart Canadians cannot ride to the rescue.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Serving the tri-state area.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hal
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Halvard Johnson
>>>>>>>>>>> ================
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
>>>>>>>>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
>>>>>>>>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Sonnets from the Basque & Other
>>>>>>>>>>> Poems<https://docs.google.com/document/d/16pWoy7FBSWyCLW
>>>>>>>>>>> pz0hhI-i0BOYjSB eUiqfWBmJF3g64/edit?hl=en_US
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> , Mainly
>>>>>>>>>>> Black<https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1i_JGJ_Fq
>>>>>>>>>>> QldEnUq7cwjV8gi
>>>>>>>>>>> Yykz_tsGbTkC2EkAP3IM&hl=en&pli=1
>>>>>>>>>>> #
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> , **Obras
>>>>>>>>>>> Públicas<https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/hal
>>>>>>>>>>> vard-johnson-ob ras-publicas
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
>>>>>>>>>>> Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johns
>>>>>>>>>>> on-THE-PERFECTI ON-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
>>>>>>>>>>> Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Hal
>>>>>>>>>>> vard-Johnson/dp
>>>>>>>>>>> /0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&s
>>>>>>>>>>> r=8-1
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ; **Tango
>>>>>>>>>>> Bouquet<https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0ATDp6rzKkBkhZ
>>>>>>>>>>> GZwand2cHdfOWc1
>>>>>>>>>>> Mnh3Zw&hl=en
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ; **Theory of
>>>>>>>>>>> Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpress
>>>>>>>>>>> ed.wippiespace .
>>>>>>>>>>> com/fall04/theory1.pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ; **Rapsodie
>>>>>>>>>>> espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpre
>>>>>>>>>>> ssed.wippiespac e.com/rapsodi.pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo
>>>>>>>>>>> Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Po
>>>>>>>>>>> ems/dp/09714873
>>>>>>>>>>> 16/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ; **The Sonnet
>>>>>>>>>>> Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpress
>>>>>>>>>>> ed.wippiespace .
>>>>>>>>>>> com/hsonnet.pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/
>>>>>>>>>>> genome.pdf>; **Winter
>>>>>>>>>>> Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
>>>>>>>>>>> **Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
>>>>>>>>>>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ;
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>> *Transparencies & Projections
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>
>
>
> -----
> UNFRAMED GRAPHICS by Lawrence Upton
> 42 pages; A5 paperback; colour cover
> Writers Forum 978 1 84254 277 4
> wfuk.org.uk/blog
> ----
> Lawrence Upton
> Dept of Music
> Goldsmiths, University of London
>
Douglas Barbour
[log in to unmask]
http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/
http://eclecticruckus.wordpress.com/
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It is natural to speak of your own weaknesses so winsomely they will seem strengths, as if everyone else is inadequate if they do not have your inadequacies.
William H. Gass
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