Thanks for this, Jon.  I am actually working on elements of exactly
this in relation to the republishing and marketing of John Michell.
It's been quite a ride.

All the best,
Amy

On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 2:23 PM, Sharp Jon Mr (LTS) <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Amy, this is indeed an interesting area and I agree that precision and clarity are key when trying to reach an agreement on the meaning of the terms under discussion and the extent which once defined they can be applied to a given movement, conceptual framework or praxis.
>
> I think you are right that the term Radical Traditionalism needs some unpacking too. Tyr's attempt at a definition of  Radical Traditionalism in the Preface of Vol 1 (and I think carried on back cover of the subsequent 2 volumes) seems to be a reasonably broad first pass. However, it is a polemical statement rather than a critical analysis. John Michell's Confessions of a Radical Traditionalist certainly demonstrates some of the difficulties in pinning this school (if it is such) down with any certainty.
>
> My own reading of the emergence of Radical Traditionalism as a self-selected label is that it has been driven by a number of factors: The desire to distinguish a mode of Traditionalism from the Traditionalism of Geunon et al in terms of a focus on the 'root' of particular traditions rather than a universalising traditionalism. The dual function of 'Radical' suggesting both radix, but also activist appealing to those who, ironically enough, followed Marx in believing that 'the point is to effect change'. I think that the 'Radical' prefix also points to a desire to incorporate a broader range of positions than would be allowed by the Integralist School.
>
> Evola seems to have been re-invented as a Radical Traditionalist despite the fact that his writings are perennialist in their approach to cosmology, Self-becoming and models of social organisation. I think his appeal to contemporary Radical Traditionalists lies in his active engagement with magical praxis (the UR Group most famously) and his linkage of the work on the Self to the development of the folk as a whole. Possibly his work, 'Ride the Tiger' has an appeal to that element of the Radical Traditionalist movement that takes a wholly pessimistic view of the world as it is and sees it as an expression of the tension between a desire for the organic or holistic vision of Radical Traditionalism and a sense of the impossibility of the task in the face of the current social and economic order of things.
>
> Clearly someone needs to write a paper initiating (no pun intended) a conversation around the possible definitions of fascsim/ neo-fascism/ post fascism/ folkism/ traditionalism in the specific context of the intersection between those conceptual models as defined and magical praxis, structures and movements
>
> My big worry is that this email list will prove far more appealing than cracking on with finishing my thesis :)
> bw
> Jon
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Amy Hale [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 16 August 2011 21:40
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Fw: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] CFP: Extremism, Nationalism and Transgression
>
> Thanks, Jon, this is very interesting.  I would agree with you that we
> especially need to be careful and clinical with our use of terms like
> Nazi. Fascist and Nazi are not equivalent terms, although the latter
> suggests the former. There are certainly people, like Flowers, who
> have expressed an interest in Nazi aesthetics, history and uses of
> power, but this does not necessarily mean that he is advocating the
> same direction or tactics.  I'm not saying he isn't either, but I do
> believe that to make these assessments that we should try to be
> precise about what we mean by these terms. And I would disagree that
> De Benoist is not coming from a fascist (with a small f) perspective.
> I think he is, but not a Nationalist Socialist one.
>
> As far as Radical Traditionalism is concerned, I think this term is a
> bit tricky too, and it too has some classically fascist features.
> From what I have been able to discern, John Michell actually coined
> the term, but it was adopted within the last decade to market Evola
> inspired folkish materials such as Tyr. This may not be correct, and
> if anyone else has a clearer picture of how this term has developed in
> distinction to Traditionalism, I would be interested in that
> information.
>
> Regards,
> Amy
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:10 PM, Sharp Jon Mr (LTS) <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> I think this may constitute a de-lurking as a previous email put it although only having joined the board a short time ago it's more of an introduction than a peering out from the shadows :)
>>
>> I would not describe myself as fully aligned with the views of Alain de Benoist as he presents himself now nor would I agree with all that he produced since founding the GRECE group in the late sixties. That said, I suspect my position has at least as much in common with the New Right as it does with Left discourses around some of the key themes de Benoist explores.
>>
>> In that context, my own view would be that support for the New Right, as constructed within de Benoist's manifesto falls a long way short of being pro-Fascist and even further from being evidence that one is an advocate of National-Socialism. Moreover, I'm not sure (would have to dig out my copy and re-read) that Flowers' support is unequivocal. For instance, de Benoist's preference for a pseudo-imperium within which diverse local identity groups subsist would be at odds with the neo-tribal perspective taken by Flowers.
>>
>> I would absolutely agree with you though that the term 'fascist' has become intensely problematic, both in terms of the somewhat nebulous range of positions about which it is deployed as a descriptor and due to its dual function as a ideological label and a tool for seeking to negatively frame views other than one's own. In this respect it strikes me as very similar to the label 'Stalinist', thrown about with gay abandon by far too many who are opposed to Leftism and used to describe a plethora of political positions and actions.
>>
>> This may seem overly pedantic to some, but I would argue that it is quite reasonable to describe Flowers as a Radical Traditionalist, a Folkish Tribalist or a supporter of the New Right (where that is understood as a generic descriptor for a very broad movement rather than a particular strand thereof). I would still take the view that none of those associations necessarily indicate fascism or national-socialism.
>>
>> The reason I regard the distinction as useful is that once an idea is tagged as 'fascist' or even worse 'Nazi' it precludes it from being a valid, potentially useful or worthy notion. As a result any number of potentially interesting cultural, philosophical, ideological and (to get back on track with the JISC list title) magical perspectives may be ignored or worse.
>>
>> bw
>> Jon Sharp
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Amy Hale [[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent: 16 August 2011 20:02
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Fw: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] CFP: Extremism, Nationalism and Transgression
>>
>> Jon, Flowers is very clear in his preface for an edition of Alain de
>> Benoist's "Manifesto for a European Renaissance" that he is in support
>> of the aims of the New Right and would like to promote them in an
>> American context, although he admits it might present difficulty. He
>> is also pretty clear about his views in recent interviews that he has
>> given and also in the ways in which he perceives "Indo European
>> Studies" and its role in cultural revitalization.
>>
>> Now of course, members of and proponents of the New Right do not
>> generally self identify as "fascist", even though many academics,
>> including myself and Roger Griffin, both believe that the legacy of
>> thought and program is clear.  There is a distinction, though, between
>> neo fascism, crypto fascism and what we call Historical Fascism
>> (meaning Italian Fascism and Nazism during the interwar and WW2
>> period).  You are right that the terminology is tricky.
>>
>> Best,
>> Amy
>>
>> Amy Hale
>> Department of Humanities
>> St. Petersburg College
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Sharp Jon Mr (LTS)
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> 'I think you're being too kind - with Stephen Flowers and Michael Aquino in
>>> leadership positions, the Setian movement sure had at least a passing link
>>> to the Nazis (old school NSDAP types).'
>>>
>>> I think there is a danger of reaching a little too quickly for the fascist/
>>> national-socialist tag at times. There is plenty of material around (mainly
>>> online) that suggessts a fascist/ national-socialist angle to the views
>>> of  Stephen Flowers/ Edred Thorsson. However, I haven't read anything by
>>> Flowers/ Thorsson himself that suggests such a label would be deserved.
>>>
>>> bw
>>> Jon Sharp
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
>>> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Samuel Wagar
>>> [[log in to unmask]]
>>> Sent: 16 August 2011 16:50
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Fw: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] CFP:
>>> Extremism, Nationalism and Transgression
>>>
>>>> Political religion
>>>
>>>> It's good to see that there are people on the list plugged into the issues
>>>> without overblowing it too much.
>>>
>>> Most of our local Northern Mysteries folk are more conservative than I am,
>>> some tend toward the folkish end a bit much for me, but generally they try
>>> to keep the fascists out of their organizations. There's only one or two
>>> racist Asatruar I know, and they aren't political fascists.
>>>
>>>
>>>> "The Companions of Seth"  ....
>>>> previous Setian groups have been v ambiguous on these issues
>>>
>>> I think you're being too kind - with Stephen Flowers and Michael Aquino in
>>> leadership positions, the Setian movement sure had at least a passing link
>>> to the Nazis (old school NSDAP types). My friend ByThor in Alberta is also
>>> libertarian left and his OTO group some years ago had some interest in the
>>> German occultist currents that fed into NSDAP (as well as other things), so
>>> it's not completely contaminated.
>>>
>>> The anthology might be interesting. Certainly worthwhile.
>>>
>>> Blessed Be, 93,
>>>
>>> Sam