Dear Peter, Anne, Lee, and anyone else who is still interested:
Here's another reference to England as Israel (in the optative
subjunctive) that I don't think has been mentioned, and it's well before
the Armada:
Bernard Capp his essay "The Political Dimension of Apocalyptic
Thought"in_The Apocalypse in English Renaissance thought and literature_
ed. C. A. Patrides and Joseph Wittreich, tells us that "the young King
Edward, he [Nicolas Udall] hoped, would build an 'English Israel' and
continue the struggle against Antichrist"(p. 95). Note 16 (p. 118)tells
us that this is from _The first tome or volume of the Paraphrase of
Erasmus upon the newe testamente_ (1548), Udall's epistle, sigs aiii,
iiiverso and passim.
Carol
On 5/4/2011 12:41 PM, ANNE PRESCOTT wrote:
> Thanks, Lee (and I hope you're doing well). I'll print this out, as I'm
> sure others will too. Somebody recently told me this is "digital"
> publication, but that word is too specific. You are "listified"?
> Circulated? Anne.
>
> On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Lee Piepho <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>
> Hi Anne,
> Well, yes, and there's been a good deal of debate re Clark's
> assertion that Protestantism wasn’t the formative influence on the
> association. It certainly was energized by the St Batholomew's Day
> Massacre, about which Diarmaid MacCullough and I put forth a modest
> thesis in a recent article I'm attaching (it's pretty long but you
> can get the gist of it by reading the first couple of sections and
> especially the last one). And the large point of Claydon's work as
> well as Steve Pincus' books is that the terms shifted in weight and
> meaning over time.
> Best,
> Lee
>
>
> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 6:32 PM, ANNE PRESCOTT <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Lee. I'll have to change some of my choronology. But
> wouldn't the Reformation and the view of modern Rome as Babel
> have at least given the association further vibes/energy? Just
> asking. Anne.
>
>
> On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 5:36 PM, Lee Piepho <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>
> Hello Peter,
> Not unsurprisingly, historians have been working on
> England/Israel for some time.Here’s a selection from my
> reading. I’m sure members of the list can easily deepen it.
> J. C. D. Clark, “Protestantism, Nationalism, and National
> Identity,1660-1832,” /Historical Journal/, 43 (2000) claims
> that the idea of England as God’s Israel was a commonplace
> in the 14^th century, notes that this providential framework
> means that Protestantism wasn’t the formative influence in
> establishing the connection (270).
> For a later period Tony Claydon considers the association in
> “The Nationalisation of the War,” /William III and the Godly
> Revolution/(Cambridge Univ. Press,1996), pp. 134-47.
> It’s also worth looking at Pasi Ihalainen, /Protestant
> Nations Redefined: Changing Perceptions of National Identity
> in the Rhetoric of the English, Dutch, and Swedish Public
> Churches, 1685-1772/(Leiden: Brill, 2005).This is a masive
> study that ought to be better known.
> And finally Claydon with Ian McBride get behind some of the
> issues involved in the identificationin “The Trials of the
> Chosen Peoples: Recent Interpretations of Protestantism and
> National Identity in Britain and Ireland,” /Protestantism
> and National Identity: Britain and Ireland, ca.
> 1650-1850/(Cambridge, 1998), 3-29, esp. 12f, 25f.
> I’m late coming on this thread.Hope some of what I’ve given
> is helpful.As usual, it’s worth combing the notes.
> Best,
> Lee
> On May 2, 2011, at 11:34 AM, william oram wrote:
>
>> I asked a local medievalist (Josh Birk) about the British
>> Isrealite connection. Here's what he said:
>>
>> As far as I know, there several medieval references that
>> connect various British peoples to Israel. The Scottish
>> declaration of Independence in 1320 connects the Scots to
>> the Scythians, and the Scythians to the lost tribe of
>> Israel. This may be where the idea that the Stone of
>> Scone is Jacob's pillar comes from, though I am unsure if
>> that connection circulates in the 14th century.
>>
>> We see the theory addressed more specifically by Le Loyer
>> in "his Ten lost tribes of Found" in 1590, and Saddler's
>> "rights of the Kingdom in 1649", bopth of which make
>> specific claims that the Isrealites came to England and
>> became the English people. However, I know next to
>> nothing about these ideas themselves. i know them because
>> they are used by various 18th and 19th century groups that
>> claim an Anglo-Israelite identity, which forms the
>> theological underpinning for various white power groups,
>> specifically Christian Identity, in this country in the
>> twentieth century.
>>
>> Bill Oram
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Susanne Woods
>> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know whether the Wycliffites made any
>> connection between England and Jerusalem? The Wife of
>> Bath had been there (thrice!), but I don't see
>> anything in the Canterbury Pilgrimage making the
>> connection.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 5:09 PM, Barbara Brumbaugh
>> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>
>> Florence Sandler (for example) discusses the use
>> of Exodus typology in
>> the Henrician era: "Inevitably, Britain's
>> extricating herself from the
>> papal authority and discovering autonomy within
>> her own land found its
>> Biblical analogy in Israel's Exodus from Egypt and
>> entry into the
>> Promised Land" (157). Her essay, "The Faerie
>> Queene: an Elizabethan
>> Apocalypse," appears in the collection, The
>> Apocalypse in English
>> Reformation Thought and Literature," which was
>> edited by Patrides and
>> Wittreich.
>>
>> >>> Peter Herman <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> 04/22/11 12:15 PM >>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Does anybody know when the trope of England as
>> Israel (common during the
>> Elizabethan era, especially after the Armada) began?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> Peter C. Herman
>>
>>
>>
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