Dear All
 
Please allow me to enter this discussion. As a teacher of 16 years' standing, with 6 years experience in a multi-racial FE college and another six in a white working-class college, I would endorse Kathy's view entirely that one needs to put the statistics into context. In my experience, the chief determinant of educational achievement is socio-economic class and the fact is that immigrant communities are usually amongst the poorest in any community means children from them start with a disadvantage in school. This is not to say that youngsters (of all ethnic backgrounds) cannot overcome socio-economic circumstances and achieve great things - but they often need to have 'special' circumstances to help them - a very good school, very supportive parents and perhaps also not too many other siblings. I saw some wonderful achievements by my Asian students - some with very deprived backgrounds, but I have to admit that the majority of students (of both white and BME backgrounds) who consistently did well came from the well-heeled homes. 
 
The higher achievements of Indian and Chinese children are not really so puzzling, as  proportionately these children come more from middle-class homes or at least better-off working-class ones. Culture does play a part - Asian parents generally are very aspirational for their children - I have lost count of the students I interviewed with mediocre GCSEs who told me they wanted to be doctors, accountants and lawyers - and some of them managed it. Chinese and Asian communities have very strong family structures and extended families - almost every student from that background will have a relative, even if a remote one, who has succeeded at school and he/she can call on that person for information at the very least, if not actual support of some kind. Children (both white and BME) who come from 'disrupted' family backgrounds, with a lack of stability as well as a lack of money, are bound to be distracted from succeeding in school - they need a lot of support to achieve. The problem of unstable family structures, often exacerbated by unemployment, has been recognised in white working-class communities for many years - I have seen references to it in school inspection reports from the 1970s where Asian children were seen to be able to learn better due to their stronger family structures.
 
The problem of boys' underachievement seems to be related to male cultures and especially estates where status is not conferred by having a job but via other routes, which are not attained via educational success. A good read on this is Gillian Evans' book 'Educational Failure and Working Class White Children in Britain' - she has something to say about the problems of working-class black children as well.
 
It is really pleasing to see this topic coming up for discussion on BASA.
 
Best wishes
 
Dr Nicola Sheldon
Institute of Historical Research
University of London
 

________________________________

From: The Black and Asian Studies Association on behalf of Simons, Andy
Sent: Mon 27/06/2011 17:03
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: some statistics


Good sense from Kathleen!  Of course research stats, like opinion poll results, are pretty meaningless unless there's context and numerous other studies to compare the results with.  This reminds me of the news story last week about how type 2 diabetes could be reversed, based on a study that used only 11 patients.  Ben Goldacre will no doubt deal with that one.
 
They say it's an achievement if your kids stay out of prison.  But immigrants do tend to try harder.  And, although there are no guarantees in life, kids generally won't succeed in school unless their parents place great value on it.  
 
-Andy Simons
 
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From: The Black and Asian Studies Association [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kathleen Chater
Sent: 27 June 2011 16:28
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: some statistics
 
A lot of these statistics are meaningless if they are not contextualised and compared to other factors.  What is the percentage of white working-class boys who achieve A-C in GCSE exams? I think that's pretty low too. Why are both working-class white and Black Caribbean boys behind Asians (both from the Indian sub-continent and China) in the GCSE tables?  Why is there this huge gap between black boys and girls?  If it is claimed that this is because Black pupils aren't taught about their history, why doesn't it affect girls equally? Neither Indian nor Chinese history is much mentioned in history lessons, which doesn't seem to inhibit these pupils from outperforming everyone else. What is the percentage of white girls getting A-C GCSE?  
 
We also need to take into account the fact that white male middle-class liberals write brilliant equal opportunity statements, but keep all the good jobs for themselves and their friends.  What proportion of Social Services directors - indeed directors of any kind in the public service- are female?  My experience in government and local authority run organisations has led me to draw a direct correlation between the amount of time spent on writing and publicising the equal opportunities policy and the number of BEM and women actually in positions of power.  The more time spent on the former, the lower the number in the latter group.
 
A simple recital of statistics and the simplistic conclusion that it's all racial prejudice will not achieve anything. We haven't begun to consider the influence of culture(s) on both behaviour and its perception by people whose cultural norms are different. 
 
Kathy Chater
________________________________

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 11:14:42 +0100
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: some statistics
To: [log in to unmask]
At the BASA conference last Saturday I noted these statistics:
 
1. Office of National Statistics, 2005:
Only 27% of Black Caribbean boys and 44% of girls achieved grades A - C in GCSE exams 
 
Permanent exclusion rates for 'Other Black' was 42 per 10,000 pupils; for 'Black Caribbean' it was 41 per 10,000;  and for 'Mixed White and Black Caribbean' 37 per 10,000. For Whites it was 14 per 10,000.
 
2. Guardian 27/5/2011:
Of 14,000 professors in academia, 0.4% were Black
 
3. Black Bright |News #26
While 17% of social workers are from Black and Ethnic Minority groups, only 2.5% of Social Services directors are 'BEM'.
 
4. CIBER/UCL, April 2009
45% of Londoners but only 3.9% of local authority library staff are 'BEM' 
 
2% of the members of the Chartered Institute of Library and Information professionals are Black.
 
5. Cultural Leadership Programme, 2011
While 11.0% of the working age population of England is 'BME', 
3.7% of senior civil servants at the DCMS are 'BME'
2.3% of accredited librarians
3.3% of 'strategic and operations managers in national and hub museums'
4.6% of the 'entire archive workforce regardless of seniority'
 
6. Ofsted report 2011
A survey of 222 primary school teachers found that
67% had no history advisors
90% had little or no training in history
 
7. Runnymede Trust
In the Education Bill for 2011 there is no reference to race equality or the prevention of racial bullying.
 
8. Guardian 23/5/2011
Research on people 'stopped' under the Terrorism Act 2000 when split into those questioned for over and under one hour showed that:
            Over one hour               Under one hour
Whites              19%                            45%
Asians            41%                            25%
Blacks                        10%                            8%
Other              30%                            22%