Hi Jamie,
Firstly, I think you and David were at cross-purposes - I couldn't
work out if David was forwarding the piece negatively or positively -
negatively, I think, going by what he's said.
Anyway, your comment about poetry being 'more robust than this' is
interesting. I agree, it probably is - but in the long term (I hope) -
in the short term I think it is damaged - but this 'short term' can be
long enough to damage poets in their life time, if you see what I
mean. The drift towards these new forms of validation with regard to
creative writing MA's etc has been gradual but is now beginning to
bite. I was at a poetry 'do' last year where every poet was presented
in the programme as being some super academic achiever with long lists
of letters and accredited courses after their names - and it wasn't an
especially avant line-up either. This is a different animal to the
more traditional university English dept. coterie with its enclosed
circle of pals publishing pals but the effect of these two things in
tandem is really starting to colour the way poets are presented as
being deserving of a readership or not.
And yes, 'any indicator of value', as you point out, is absent from
the extract. It's like the rest of the educational world as it
developed through the Blair years - what counts is not the thing
itself - it's value lies in how many boxes it has filled, whether it
has completed the correct courses then gone through the expected
processes - all things that be quantified in the way that real
education, as in real poetry, cannot. So yes, I am not surprised by
the tone of this piece and the language it uses, it's typical.
Cheers
tim A.
On 27 May 2011, at 13:55, Jamie McKendrick wrote:
> Tim,
> Your comment -
> "once the validation of poetry depends not on the poetry itself but
> on the institutional position of the poet then poetry is fucked,
> whatever sort of poetry it is"
> - isn't far from my own feelings; except that I think poetry is far
> more robust than this.
> Any indicator of value - except in the dubious point about editorial
> input - is entirely absent from the extract. The same goes for the
> sentence about readings that ninerrors quotes.
> What I wonder is why, if I've understood him right, David Lace
> thought this a trustworthy account of how things are. Do you think
> it is?
> That this is the language which the Arts Council and its compilers
> have chosen to discuss the topic is certainly significant. And maybe
> not that surprising.
>
> Best,
> Jamie
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Allen" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 11:36 AM
> Subject: Re: Arts Council report on Contemporary Poetry
>
>
> As I'm here, a few comments on what David sent us...
>
> >"The fact of edited publication remains crucial in the poetry
> sector, to the extent that even performance poets, while acknowledging
> the aurality of their work, aspire to this kind of validation.<"
>
> I don't think this is altogether true - there are any number of
> performance poets who, to my knowledge, don't give a monkeys about
> appearing in print - and long may it stay that way.
> And the same applies to a number of poets who appear to be solely on-
> line based.
>
> >" Poets active in the tertiary educational sector are required, to
> be considered ‘research active’, to have publications"<
>
> Now this is probably true, and just how awful is it? I've said it
> before and I'll say it again - once the validation of poetry depends
> not on the poetry itself but on the institutional position of the poet
> then poetry is fucked, whatever sort of poetry it is.
>
> >"Other forms of validation include awards and prizes (of which there
> are hundreds, perhaps a dozen of which have a national profile), and
> appointments in the academic or civic sector"<
>
> Yuk! Yuk! Yuk!
>
> Poetry is not a profession - it's an artform. Of course it has to deal
> with institutions and professions to get itself known and published
> and talked about - but it should itself remain as independent as
> possible from those things and not let its context be dictated by
> them.
>
> Tim A.
>
> On 26 May 2011, at 14:55, David Lace wrote:
>
>> Informative extract:
>>
>> “Yet the success of book publication is not to be measured solely
>> by the statistic of copies sold. The relationship between poet
>> and editor should ensure that the quality of the work produced is
>> significantly better than it might have been had the work not been
>> edited, that it is accurately and attractively produced, and that
>> it appears with the imprimatur of a publishing house which is a
>> species of ‘guarantor’, providing a ‘license’ authorising the
>> poet. The fact of edited publication remains crucial in the poetry
>> sector, to the extent that even performance poets, while
>> acknowledging the aurality of their work, aspire to this kind of
>> validation. Poets active in the tertiary educational sector are
>> required, to be considered ‘research active’, to have
>> publications, though hitherto the educational sector has not been
>> as consistent in discriminating the quality and level of
>> achievement in terms of poetry book publication as they are in
>> terms of academic publications.
>>
>> Other forms of validation include awards and prizes (of which
>> there are hundreds, perhaps a dozen of which have a national
>> profile), and appointments in the academic or civic sector which
>> entail a transparent selection process. Once established in these
>> ways, poets will find they are more welcome on the reading
>> circuit, receive fees and increase the sale of their publications
>> many-fold at events. They are also in a stronger position to apply
>> for academic and teaching posts and other jobs in the sector.”
>>
>> Pages 9-10
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------Original Message------
>> From: Alec Newman
>> Sender: British & Irish poets
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> ReplyTo: British & Irish poets
>> Subject: Arts Council report on Contemporary Poetry
>> Sent: 24 May 2011 09:42
>>
>> Anyone who's not seen this might find it interesting. Comments on
>> a postcard please.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.literaturedevelopment.co.uk/domains/nationalassociationforliteraturedevelopment.org.uk/local/media/audio/Poetry_mapping_DEFINITIVE.pdf
>>
>>
>> Alec
>>
>>
>> Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone from Virgin Media
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