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Subject:

Re: Local Listing - a red herring?

From:

Casa-Hatton Rebecca <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Issues related to Historic Environment Records <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:08:01 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (1101 lines)

What about trying to add the buildings to a local list?





Regards



Rebecca



Rebecca Casa Hatton

Archaeologist

Planning Services

Peterborough City Council

Stuart House (East Wing), St John's Street

Peterborough

PE1 5DD



Email: [log in to unmask]

Telephone: 01733 864702

Mobile number: 07920160223



(Monday-Tuesday and Thursday 9.00 - 15.00)



To find out more about Peterborough City Council, please go to: www.peterborough.gov.uk



Please consider the environment before printing this email









-----Original Message-----

From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bob Jones

Sent: 14 April 2011 08:46

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?



I think that this ruling needs careful thought. As I read it, the new protection against demolition only applies if an EIA is deemed to be required (eg in the case of large scale clearance of whole streets or the demolition of extensive structures such as breweries), in which case permitted development rights are suspended. I have been advised informally by a couple of my planning colleagues that the situation remains unchanged in the case of individual buildings, which are unlisted and outside conservation areas, since, while demolition may now be considered to be development, permitted development rights still apply.



Any thoughts?



Bob



Bob Jones BA, FSA, MIfA

City Archaeologist

Urban Design and Conservation

City Design Group

City Development

Brunel House

St Georges Road

Bristol

BS1 5UY

tel 0117 922 3044

mobile 07746 101106

email [log in to unmask]



websites: www.bristol.gov.uk/archaeology

www.bristol.gov.uk/knowyourplace



Please note that I currently only work Tuesday to Thursday









>>> Mike Shaw <[log in to unmask]> 13/04/11 14:15 >>>

Good news!  And despite the fact that the council conservation officer

supported the demolition!



Mike



Mike Shaw

City Archaeologist

Wolverhampton City Council

Civic Centre

Wolverhampton

WV1 1RP

e-mail [log in to unmask]

Tel: 01902 555493





________________________________



From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records

[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Winfield, Hugh

Sent: 12 April 2011 10:50

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?





Mike and All,



For those of you who aren't planning officers as well, this may be of

interest with regards to the subject below:



http://www.39essex.com/resources/news_listing.php?id=69

<http://www.39essex.com/resources/news_listing.php?id=69>



Essentially, nearly all buildings now need planning consent for

demolition which gives our Local Lists some much needed extra

protection!

I'm also asking our planning department and legal team whether this

gives any control over damages to scheduled monuments given the

difficulty in enforcing the AMAA act.



Hugh



Hugh Winfield

Archaeologist and Historic Environment Record Officer

Development Management

Origin Two, Origin Way

Europarc, Grimsby

North East Lincolnshire

DN37 9TZ

Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216



Balfour Beatty working in partnership with North East Lincolnshire

Council







________________________________



From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records

[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mike Shaw

Sent: 16 March 2011 13:18

To: Winfield, Hugh

Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?





Hugh,



Problems, problems!  As you said buildings in a Conservation Area needs

consent for demolition so I guess the solution is to press for creation

of, or extension of, a conservation area wherever possible.



Regards,



Mike









Mike Shaw

City Archaeologist

Wolverhampton City Council

Civic Centre

Wolverhampton

WV1 1RP

e-mail [log in to unmask]

Tel: 01902 555493





________________________________



From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records

[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Winfield, Hugh

Sent: 16 March 2011 12:18

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?





Mike,



I've been told that you're right; I suppose the only thing that could be

done would be to try and argue the planning argument - that you can't

necessarily build a similar building to one that has been knocked down,

particularly if some time elapses between demolition and construction of

the new build - plus the cost of bringing a building down and raising a

new one would often be more than looking after the building.



All that said, I am concerned about some of our buildings which are

going on our local list as they are owned by a company which has a bad

reputation for knocking down historic buildings.



Hugh



Hugh Winfield

Archaeologist

Development Management

Origin Two, Origin Way

Europarc, Grimsby

North East Lincolnshire

DN37 9TZ

Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216



Balfour Beatty working in partnership with North East Lincolnshire

Council







________________________________



From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records

[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mike Shaw

Sent: 16 March 2011 11:00

To: Winfield, Hugh

Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?





Hugh,



My Conservation Officer tells me that although you can use an Article 4

(1) direction to control types of development you cannot issue one to

prevent demolition so it looks as though there is no sure way of

preventing demolition following local listing - unless you have had a

different experience?



Regards,



Mike





Mike Shaw

City Archaeologist

Wolverhampton City Council

Civic Centre

Wolverhampton

WV1 1RP

e-mail [log in to unmask]

Tel: 01902 555493





________________________________



From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records

[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Winfield, Hugh

Sent: 16 March 2011 09:28

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?





Nick,



I still, don't think the point is getting across.



The planning system works on a sort of hierarchical system, with various

levels of recognition giving different "weight" when pushing for a

higher standard in planning applications. We're all used to this in the

form of Grade I, II* and II buildings which have been identified by

specialists as being of different levels of importance; what the local

lists do is to take a section of the local heritage assets, scrutinise

them, approve them, and state that they are more important and therefore

have more weight in the planning system than an undesignated asset, but

are not as important as the national designations.

Perhaps the best way to think of it is an approved HER, or HER*, where

less work is needed to justify harsh planning controls in individual

cases.



PPS5 has enshrined the HER as a material planning consideration, so

planners should not be ignoring it, but that doesn't mean that we can't

also highlight the best assets from it.



On the subject of demolitions after local listing, if the building is in

a conservation area then they would need consent to do this, and if it

isn't then the local listing should have been accompanied by an Article

4(1) direction which can now be issued directly by the planning

authority rather than having to be approved by the secretary of state.



Yes, local lists are a heck load of work, but they should be worth it;

in my experience working on the local lists here has vastly improved

peoples understanding of the local heritage resource and recognition of

the HER. In some cases, this may be the most important outcome of

creating a Local List as it may be the case that the knowledge just

isn't there of what is important.



Hugh



Hugh Winfield

Archaeologist

Development Management

Origin Two, Origin Way

Europarc, Grimsby

North East Lincolnshire

DN37 9TZ

Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216



Balfour Beatty working in partnership with North East Lincolnshire

Council







________________________________



From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records

[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nick Boldrini

Sent: 16 March 2011 08:40

To: Winfield, Hugh

Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?







Hi Chris/Mike







I think I have understood the difference - I recognise Local Lists

are/were about buildings, and SMR's were archaeology.







My point is that HER's should be about both ie an HER should include

buildings and archaeology, as they are both elements of the Historic

Environment. The historic fact of the existence of the SMR/Local List

different systems does not mean that the two systems should be

continued. I thought that one of the points of PPS 5 was to make all the

Historic Environment be treated similarly, and that logic, to me, seems

like it should also apply to the information systems about it. This may

be an aspirational aim, but is one I think many HER's would agree with

ie they wouldn't exclude buildings now.







The point about the difference between the two systems and how they

identify assets that Chris gave, breaks down once you start considering

earthwork sites. These may be clearly identifiable/delineatable (I may

have just invented that word..)  sites which can be preserved and

quoting Chris, " could easily be recognised and afforded some kind

protection. All of which can be regarded in planning terms as being a

constraint and [worth] preserving in their present condition in some

form or other." As Nick says, SHONE records could be included - but

hasn't SHINE already identified them as worthy as preserving,? So why do

they need to be included in yet another subset of the HER to be

protected?







In Durham, we have no Local lists, nor did any of the previous

districts, so we would have to create one from scratch. What I am

unclear of is why this is better than just adding the relevant old Grade

III buildings, other identified buildings  and other structures to the

HER, and having them protected by the processes for which the HER is

used?







This is emphasised, to me, by the point Mike makes. I agree that Local

Listing makes something undeniably a Heritage Asset. But does that not

also imply that everything not Locally Listed is NOT a Heritage Asset?

Given that most local lists historically will be building based, then

does this not automatically downgrade the status of archaeological

sites? As for re-doing the list to include archaeology - well that would

be a huge job in most HERs, and as Chris points out, many would not make

the cut not because they are not worthy, but because they are

insufficiently researched.







I think that the two-tier element the local list would bring into

records could easily make people think that if its not on the local list

its not worth protecting, and I think that there is a real risk that

this could be an un-intended conclusion drawn by planning officers.

Whilst  you could argue against it, I think it could be more difficult

to persuade them to protect stuff that is not locally listed. I predict

that may well be an argument we have with planners in the future in

those places with Local Lists. Anecdotal evidence from the North east

also suggests that Local Lists have lead to the demolition of buildings

put on it, presumably to avoid the constraints implied.







There is also the issue of currency. Using the process being consulted

on, drawing up a local list will be resource intensive, and

realistically I would suggest that it is unlikely to happen more than

once a decade. So what happens to the site that comes in the day after

the local list is published? It is protected through normal means. If

that's good enough, what is the value of the local list?







Overall, I think Local Lists could easily add confusion about what is

worth protecting, and that's why I suggested they are a red herring.







If they don't add confusion, I think they imply a lot of work for what I

see as relatively minimal benefits.







That said, if the HER users round here want them, then we'll come up

with them, after all my job as HERO is to make the HER fit for user

needs







But so far, no one has convinced me that they're such a good thing I

should be leading the charge.











best wishes







Nick Boldrini







Historic Environment Record Officer



Durham County Council



Tel: 0191 3708840



Fax: 0191 3708897















From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records

[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mike Shaw

Sent: 15 March 2011 10:56

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?







Local lists can include all sorts of sites, including buried

archaeological deposits, if a council wishes them to do so.  Surely the

main point about them is that any site on the local list has been

through a scrutiny process and has been placed on the list with approval

from the council.  As such there is no problem with a local list site

being considered a heritage asset.  The same presumably does not apply

to all sites on the HER (a question I asked at the HER Forum at

Chester).







Regards,







Mike











Mike Shaw



City Archaeologist



Wolverhampton City Council



Civic Centre



Wolverhampton



WV1 1RP



e-mail [log in to unmask]



Tel: 01902 555493











________________________________



From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records

[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Wardle

Sent: 15 March 2011 10:29

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?



Hi Nick,







I think you've failed to consider the difference between a Local List

and an HER.







As someone else has pointed out Local Lists arose out of all those

buildings that were grade 3 listed prior to the lists being revamped in

the 1970s(?) after which grade 3 buildings were no longer regarded as

being of sufficient Architectural or Historic Interest to justify their

being designated nationally. Some planning authorities did not wish to

abandon all protection on these buildings to chose to maintain a local

list of these buildings. Other planning authorities stated to maintain a

local list at a later date, and EH is now suggesting that all planning

authorities consider doing the same.



-The crucial thing about all the buildings/structures on a local list is

that they are (in theory at least) upstanding things that could easily

be recognised and afforded some kind protection. All of which can be

regarded in planning terms as being a constraint and preserving in their

present condition in some form or other.







As we are all aware HERs have evolved out of the old SMRs and contain of

information about a wide range of entities from:-



-Archaeological monuments of national importance and which (for the most

part) are capable of having their extent defined in some way or other by

the presence of physical structures or earthworks, by historic

boundaries, by cropmarks, by the evidence from excavations, or by a

combination of any of the others. These clearly form constraints in

planning terms and worthy of preservation.



To



-Archaeological monuments and landscapes that are either are of some

importance but not enough to be regarded as being of nationally

importance (an example of which might be a badly damaged  moated site)

or which could not be provided with a national designation (an example

of which be a mediaeval settlement site that is still a thriving

settlement). These may form constraints in planning terms, but making a

record of is more likely to be an option than preservation as such.



To



-A whole raft of other entities, such as isolated findspots, documentary

references where there is uncertainly about the location, reliability to

what they mean, cropmarks that are not properly understood.  Any one of

these might indicate the presence of a monument, perhaps even one of

national importance, but the present state of information makes it

difficult to describe them as constraints or capable of preservation.

The best that is likely to happen in a planning context is to gain a

further understanding of the significance and possible extent of such an

entity.







So Local Lists are much more focussed upon the desire, on behalf a local

planning authority, of conserving the character of a structure or an

area than a wide ranging HER is ever likely to be.







Chris



>>> Nick Boldrini <[log in to unmask]> 11/03/2011 10:06 >>>



Hi Brian







but so would having the building on the HER.







And that's my point, I don't see what Local Listing achieves that

putting the record on the HER doesn't. So whats the point?







That said, I take Kens point that in a 2 tier authority the situation

may be different, but we are a unitary here, so from a purely selfish

point of view, I am wondering if there is any benefit in creating a

local list.







best wishes







Nick Boldrini







Historic Environment Record Officer



Durham County Council



Tel: 0191 3708840



Fax: 0191 3708897















From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records

[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Giggins

Sent: 11 March 2011 09:56

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?







Local listing may help in justifying a building recording condition

where planning consent is obtained for demolition or major alterations.







regards







Brian Giggins



On 11 March 2011 09:25, Winfield, Hugh <[log in to unmask]>

wrote:



Nick,







A local list should be used to flag buildings (or whatever you decide to

put on it as it's not exclusive to buildings) that are of greater

interest than your standard HER entry, and therefore should receive more

attention and require stricter planning control than usual. The key to

ensuring control of a local list is to Article 4 everything residential

and to keep a four-yearly log of the buildings on the list in order to

catch any unauthorised alterations before the 5-year enforcement

deadline is reached. A local list also needs to be approved by the

Borough's planning committee and put in the LDF or SPG to show that the

council will take a hard line when making decisions on any planning

application affecting the monument/building - this floats well with most

planning inspectors who will back up the council's hard-line.



A local list should also make sure that buildings etc of high importance

are flagged up before any planning applications are validated, which is

especially important when trying to make sure that the developer submits

an assessment of significance.







As you know, I'm compiling our borough's list, and although it only

contains buildings at the moment, I will eventually move archaeological

sites onto it once the councillor's are used to the idea of working with

an updated and modern list.







Cheers,







Hugh



Hugh Winfield

Archaeologist

Development Management

Regeneration Department

Origin Two, Origin Way

Europarc, Grimsby

North East Lincolnshire

DN37 9TZ

Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216



Balfour Beatty working in partnership with North East Lincolnshire

Council











________________________________



From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records

[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nick Boldrini

Sent: 11 March 2011 08:21



To: Winfield, Hugh





Subject: Local Listing - a red herring?







hi folks







I am not sure if many of you have been doing this, but I have been

looking at the draft criteria for Local Listing and I am confused.







What is the point of Local Listing?







I can see a historic reason for their existence.







As I understand it , Local Lists used to be purely buildings or

structures (i.e. built environment objects I suppose), and were a way of

identifying those of interest which were not Listed Buildings to ensure

their protection.







To me, that sounds very much like an SMR but for buildings. It is

recording non-designated assets to make sure they are protected.







Given that HER's are supposed to now have a wider remit and should

include Historic buildings, it seems to me that the idea of a Local List

is a bit redundant.







If something is worth protecting, stick it on the HER and that will

ensure it will get flagged up during Planning or other land-use change

processes and can be taken into account.







As I have read the document, the wording about what a Local List is

seems to me to overlap massively with what the HER does.







So why have a Local List?







I can also see disadvantages to the new Local Listing proposals.







The new regime would need to include all aspects of the historic

environment, which means drawing up a Local List would be more involved

and time consuming. And I can see it being increasingly hard to argue

for preservation of things not on a Local List, if you have one, as the

creation of the List is a de facto raising of status of a particular

Heritage Asset. The guidance says this isn't the case, but the vary act

of rating some things as worthy to be on a Local List and others not

will have that effect in practice I think.







So what is the point of creating one? Couldn't you just say the Local

list is anything on the HER?







I may be missing some things here, but would be interested to know what

people think.







best wishes







Nick Boldrini







Historic Environment Record Officer



Archaeology Section



Design and Historic Environment Team



Planning Service



Regeneration and Economic Development



Durham County Council



Rivergreen Centre



Aykley Heads



Durham



DH1 5TS



Tel: 0191 3708840



Fax: 0191 3708897











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