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What about trying to add the buildings to a local list?
Regards
Rebecca
Rebecca Casa Hatton
Archaeologist
Planning Services
Peterborough City Council
Stuart House (East Wing), St John's Street
Peterborough
PE1 5DD
Email: [log in to unmask]
Telephone: 01733 864702
Mobile number: 07920160223
(Monday-Tuesday and Thursday 9.00 - 15.00)
To find out more about Peterborough City Council, please go to: www.peterborough.gov.uk
Please consider the environment before printing this email
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bob Jones
Sent: 14 April 2011 08:46
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?
I think that this ruling needs careful thought. As I read it, the new protection against demolition only applies if an EIA is deemed to be required (eg in the case of large scale clearance of whole streets or the demolition of extensive structures such as breweries), in which case permitted development rights are suspended. I have been advised informally by a couple of my planning colleagues that the situation remains unchanged in the case of individual buildings, which are unlisted and outside conservation areas, since, while demolition may now be considered to be development, permitted development rights still apply.
Any thoughts?
Bob
Bob Jones BA, FSA, MIfA
City Archaeologist
Urban Design and Conservation
City Design Group
City Development
Brunel House
St Georges Road
Bristol
BS1 5UY
tel 0117 922 3044
mobile 07746 101106
email [log in to unmask]
websites: www.bristol.gov.uk/archaeology
www.bristol.gov.uk/knowyourplace
Please note that I currently only work Tuesday to Thursday
>>> Mike Shaw <[log in to unmask]> 13/04/11 14:15 >>>
Good news! And despite the fact that the council conservation officer
supported the demolition!
Mike
Mike Shaw
City Archaeologist
Wolverhampton City Council
Civic Centre
Wolverhampton
WV1 1RP
e-mail [log in to unmask]
Tel: 01902 555493
________________________________
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Winfield, Hugh
Sent: 12 April 2011 10:50
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?
Mike and All,
For those of you who aren't planning officers as well, this may be of
interest with regards to the subject below:
http://www.39essex.com/resources/news_listing.php?id=69
<http://www.39essex.com/resources/news_listing.php?id=69>
Essentially, nearly all buildings now need planning consent for
demolition which gives our Local Lists some much needed extra
protection!
I'm also asking our planning department and legal team whether this
gives any control over damages to scheduled monuments given the
difficulty in enforcing the AMAA act.
Hugh
Hugh Winfield
Archaeologist and Historic Environment Record Officer
Development Management
Origin Two, Origin Way
Europarc, Grimsby
North East Lincolnshire
DN37 9TZ
Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216
Balfour Beatty working in partnership with North East Lincolnshire
Council
________________________________
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mike Shaw
Sent: 16 March 2011 13:18
To: Winfield, Hugh
Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?
Hugh,
Problems, problems! As you said buildings in a Conservation Area needs
consent for demolition so I guess the solution is to press for creation
of, or extension of, a conservation area wherever possible.
Regards,
Mike
Mike Shaw
City Archaeologist
Wolverhampton City Council
Civic Centre
Wolverhampton
WV1 1RP
e-mail [log in to unmask]
Tel: 01902 555493
________________________________
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Winfield, Hugh
Sent: 16 March 2011 12:18
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?
Mike,
I've been told that you're right; I suppose the only thing that could be
done would be to try and argue the planning argument - that you can't
necessarily build a similar building to one that has been knocked down,
particularly if some time elapses between demolition and construction of
the new build - plus the cost of bringing a building down and raising a
new one would often be more than looking after the building.
All that said, I am concerned about some of our buildings which are
going on our local list as they are owned by a company which has a bad
reputation for knocking down historic buildings.
Hugh
Hugh Winfield
Archaeologist
Development Management
Origin Two, Origin Way
Europarc, Grimsby
North East Lincolnshire
DN37 9TZ
Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216
Balfour Beatty working in partnership with North East Lincolnshire
Council
________________________________
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mike Shaw
Sent: 16 March 2011 11:00
To: Winfield, Hugh
Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?
Hugh,
My Conservation Officer tells me that although you can use an Article 4
(1) direction to control types of development you cannot issue one to
prevent demolition so it looks as though there is no sure way of
preventing demolition following local listing - unless you have had a
different experience?
Regards,
Mike
Mike Shaw
City Archaeologist
Wolverhampton City Council
Civic Centre
Wolverhampton
WV1 1RP
e-mail [log in to unmask]
Tel: 01902 555493
________________________________
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Winfield, Hugh
Sent: 16 March 2011 09:28
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?
Nick,
I still, don't think the point is getting across.
The planning system works on a sort of hierarchical system, with various
levels of recognition giving different "weight" when pushing for a
higher standard in planning applications. We're all used to this in the
form of Grade I, II* and II buildings which have been identified by
specialists as being of different levels of importance; what the local
lists do is to take a section of the local heritage assets, scrutinise
them, approve them, and state that they are more important and therefore
have more weight in the planning system than an undesignated asset, but
are not as important as the national designations.
Perhaps the best way to think of it is an approved HER, or HER*, where
less work is needed to justify harsh planning controls in individual
cases.
PPS5 has enshrined the HER as a material planning consideration, so
planners should not be ignoring it, but that doesn't mean that we can't
also highlight the best assets from it.
On the subject of demolitions after local listing, if the building is in
a conservation area then they would need consent to do this, and if it
isn't then the local listing should have been accompanied by an Article
4(1) direction which can now be issued directly by the planning
authority rather than having to be approved by the secretary of state.
Yes, local lists are a heck load of work, but they should be worth it;
in my experience working on the local lists here has vastly improved
peoples understanding of the local heritage resource and recognition of
the HER. In some cases, this may be the most important outcome of
creating a Local List as it may be the case that the knowledge just
isn't there of what is important.
Hugh
Hugh Winfield
Archaeologist
Development Management
Origin Two, Origin Way
Europarc, Grimsby
North East Lincolnshire
DN37 9TZ
Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216
Balfour Beatty working in partnership with North East Lincolnshire
Council
________________________________
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nick Boldrini
Sent: 16 March 2011 08:40
To: Winfield, Hugh
Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?
Hi Chris/Mike
I think I have understood the difference - I recognise Local Lists
are/were about buildings, and SMR's were archaeology.
My point is that HER's should be about both ie an HER should include
buildings and archaeology, as they are both elements of the Historic
Environment. The historic fact of the existence of the SMR/Local List
different systems does not mean that the two systems should be
continued. I thought that one of the points of PPS 5 was to make all the
Historic Environment be treated similarly, and that logic, to me, seems
like it should also apply to the information systems about it. This may
be an aspirational aim, but is one I think many HER's would agree with
ie they wouldn't exclude buildings now.
The point about the difference between the two systems and how they
identify assets that Chris gave, breaks down once you start considering
earthwork sites. These may be clearly identifiable/delineatable (I may
have just invented that word..) sites which can be preserved and
quoting Chris, " could easily be recognised and afforded some kind
protection. All of which can be regarded in planning terms as being a
constraint and [worth] preserving in their present condition in some
form or other." As Nick says, SHONE records could be included - but
hasn't SHINE already identified them as worthy as preserving,? So why do
they need to be included in yet another subset of the HER to be
protected?
In Durham, we have no Local lists, nor did any of the previous
districts, so we would have to create one from scratch. What I am
unclear of is why this is better than just adding the relevant old Grade
III buildings, other identified buildings and other structures to the
HER, and having them protected by the processes for which the HER is
used?
This is emphasised, to me, by the point Mike makes. I agree that Local
Listing makes something undeniably a Heritage Asset. But does that not
also imply that everything not Locally Listed is NOT a Heritage Asset?
Given that most local lists historically will be building based, then
does this not automatically downgrade the status of archaeological
sites? As for re-doing the list to include archaeology - well that would
be a huge job in most HERs, and as Chris points out, many would not make
the cut not because they are not worthy, but because they are
insufficiently researched.
I think that the two-tier element the local list would bring into
records could easily make people think that if its not on the local list
its not worth protecting, and I think that there is a real risk that
this could be an un-intended conclusion drawn by planning officers.
Whilst you could argue against it, I think it could be more difficult
to persuade them to protect stuff that is not locally listed. I predict
that may well be an argument we have with planners in the future in
those places with Local Lists. Anecdotal evidence from the North east
also suggests that Local Lists have lead to the demolition of buildings
put on it, presumably to avoid the constraints implied.
There is also the issue of currency. Using the process being consulted
on, drawing up a local list will be resource intensive, and
realistically I would suggest that it is unlikely to happen more than
once a decade. So what happens to the site that comes in the day after
the local list is published? It is protected through normal means. If
that's good enough, what is the value of the local list?
Overall, I think Local Lists could easily add confusion about what is
worth protecting, and that's why I suggested they are a red herring.
If they don't add confusion, I think they imply a lot of work for what I
see as relatively minimal benefits.
That said, if the HER users round here want them, then we'll come up
with them, after all my job as HERO is to make the HER fit for user
needs
But so far, no one has convinced me that they're such a good thing I
should be leading the charge.
best wishes
Nick Boldrini
Historic Environment Record Officer
Durham County Council
Tel: 0191 3708840
Fax: 0191 3708897
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mike Shaw
Sent: 15 March 2011 10:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?
Local lists can include all sorts of sites, including buried
archaeological deposits, if a council wishes them to do so. Surely the
main point about them is that any site on the local list has been
through a scrutiny process and has been placed on the list with approval
from the council. As such there is no problem with a local list site
being considered a heritage asset. The same presumably does not apply
to all sites on the HER (a question I asked at the HER Forum at
Chester).
Regards,
Mike
Mike Shaw
City Archaeologist
Wolverhampton City Council
Civic Centre
Wolverhampton
WV1 1RP
e-mail [log in to unmask]
Tel: 01902 555493
________________________________
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Wardle
Sent: 15 March 2011 10:29
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?
Hi Nick,
I think you've failed to consider the difference between a Local List
and an HER.
As someone else has pointed out Local Lists arose out of all those
buildings that were grade 3 listed prior to the lists being revamped in
the 1970s(?) after which grade 3 buildings were no longer regarded as
being of sufficient Architectural or Historic Interest to justify their
being designated nationally. Some planning authorities did not wish to
abandon all protection on these buildings to chose to maintain a local
list of these buildings. Other planning authorities stated to maintain a
local list at a later date, and EH is now suggesting that all planning
authorities consider doing the same.
-The crucial thing about all the buildings/structures on a local list is
that they are (in theory at least) upstanding things that could easily
be recognised and afforded some kind protection. All of which can be
regarded in planning terms as being a constraint and preserving in their
present condition in some form or other.
As we are all aware HERs have evolved out of the old SMRs and contain of
information about a wide range of entities from:-
-Archaeological monuments of national importance and which (for the most
part) are capable of having their extent defined in some way or other by
the presence of physical structures or earthworks, by historic
boundaries, by cropmarks, by the evidence from excavations, or by a
combination of any of the others. These clearly form constraints in
planning terms and worthy of preservation.
To
-Archaeological monuments and landscapes that are either are of some
importance but not enough to be regarded as being of nationally
importance (an example of which might be a badly damaged moated site)
or which could not be provided with a national designation (an example
of which be a mediaeval settlement site that is still a thriving
settlement). These may form constraints in planning terms, but making a
record of is more likely to be an option than preservation as such.
To
-A whole raft of other entities, such as isolated findspots, documentary
references where there is uncertainly about the location, reliability to
what they mean, cropmarks that are not properly understood. Any one of
these might indicate the presence of a monument, perhaps even one of
national importance, but the present state of information makes it
difficult to describe them as constraints or capable of preservation.
The best that is likely to happen in a planning context is to gain a
further understanding of the significance and possible extent of such an
entity.
So Local Lists are much more focussed upon the desire, on behalf a local
planning authority, of conserving the character of a structure or an
area than a wide ranging HER is ever likely to be.
Chris
>>> Nick Boldrini <[log in to unmask]> 11/03/2011 10:06 >>>
Hi Brian
but so would having the building on the HER.
And that's my point, I don't see what Local Listing achieves that
putting the record on the HER doesn't. So whats the point?
That said, I take Kens point that in a 2 tier authority the situation
may be different, but we are a unitary here, so from a purely selfish
point of view, I am wondering if there is any benefit in creating a
local list.
best wishes
Nick Boldrini
Historic Environment Record Officer
Durham County Council
Tel: 0191 3708840
Fax: 0191 3708897
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Giggins
Sent: 11 March 2011 09:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Local Listing - a red herring?
Local listing may help in justifying a building recording condition
where planning consent is obtained for demolition or major alterations.
regards
Brian Giggins
On 11 March 2011 09:25, Winfield, Hugh <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
Nick,
A local list should be used to flag buildings (or whatever you decide to
put on it as it's not exclusive to buildings) that are of greater
interest than your standard HER entry, and therefore should receive more
attention and require stricter planning control than usual. The key to
ensuring control of a local list is to Article 4 everything residential
and to keep a four-yearly log of the buildings on the list in order to
catch any unauthorised alterations before the 5-year enforcement
deadline is reached. A local list also needs to be approved by the
Borough's planning committee and put in the LDF or SPG to show that the
council will take a hard line when making decisions on any planning
application affecting the monument/building - this floats well with most
planning inspectors who will back up the council's hard-line.
A local list should also make sure that buildings etc of high importance
are flagged up before any planning applications are validated, which is
especially important when trying to make sure that the developer submits
an assessment of significance.
As you know, I'm compiling our borough's list, and although it only
contains buildings at the moment, I will eventually move archaeological
sites onto it once the councillor's are used to the idea of working with
an updated and modern list.
Cheers,
Hugh
Hugh Winfield
Archaeologist
Development Management
Regeneration Department
Origin Two, Origin Way
Europarc, Grimsby
North East Lincolnshire
DN37 9TZ
Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216
Balfour Beatty working in partnership with North East Lincolnshire
Council
________________________________
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nick Boldrini
Sent: 11 March 2011 08:21
To: Winfield, Hugh
Subject: Local Listing - a red herring?
hi folks
I am not sure if many of you have been doing this, but I have been
looking at the draft criteria for Local Listing and I am confused.
What is the point of Local Listing?
I can see a historic reason for their existence.
As I understand it , Local Lists used to be purely buildings or
structures (i.e. built environment objects I suppose), and were a way of
identifying those of interest which were not Listed Buildings to ensure
their protection.
To me, that sounds very much like an SMR but for buildings. It is
recording non-designated assets to make sure they are protected.
Given that HER's are supposed to now have a wider remit and should
include Historic buildings, it seems to me that the idea of a Local List
is a bit redundant.
If something is worth protecting, stick it on the HER and that will
ensure it will get flagged up during Planning or other land-use change
processes and can be taken into account.
As I have read the document, the wording about what a Local List is
seems to me to overlap massively with what the HER does.
So why have a Local List?
I can also see disadvantages to the new Local Listing proposals.
The new regime would need to include all aspects of the historic
environment, which means drawing up a Local List would be more involved
and time consuming. And I can see it being increasingly hard to argue
for preservation of things not on a Local List, if you have one, as the
creation of the List is a de facto raising of status of a particular
Heritage Asset. The guidance says this isn't the case, but the vary act
of rating some things as worthy to be on a Local List and others not
will have that effect in practice I think.
So what is the point of creating one? Couldn't you just say the Local
list is anything on the HER?
I may be missing some things here, but would be interested to know what
people think.
best wishes
Nick Boldrini
Historic Environment Record Officer
Archaeology Section
Design and Historic Environment Team
Planning Service
Regeneration and Economic Development
Durham County Council
Rivergreen Centre
Aykley Heads
Durham
DH1 5TS
Tel: 0191 3708840
Fax: 0191 3708897
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