May I suggest the following website to members of this list as an
alternative, or in addition to Facebook:
http://38degrees.org.uk/
Maybe if lots of individuals proposed a campaign on this site for Modern
Languages as a whole, the topic might then get taken up by the site and
become a productive dimension of any wider activity?
And for those members of the JISC list who are postholders... maybe any
success in this public forum would count as 'impact'?!
Best wishes,
Seán
DPhil student in German,
University of Oxford
-----Original Message-----
From: JISCmail German Studies List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Peter Thompson
Sent: 06 March 2011 20:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: FW: AGS consultation
It is interesting that the issue of whether this is the right place to
discuss the issue at hand has generated more emails than the issue at hand.
A facebook group might be a good idea but I am not sure how many academic
colleagues are on facebook. I am and I could look into setting up a group if
people thought it useful. It would certainly bring the matter to the
attention of students and that can't be a bad thing, given that theya re
going to be hit with a massive increase in fees just when we are facing what
amounts for many to an existential threat to our funding.
Peter
--
Dr Peter Thompson
Director, Centre for Ernst Bloch Studies
http://shef.ac.uk/ernstbloch/)
Senior Lecturer in German
Department of Germanic Studies
Jessop West
1 Upper Hanover Street
Sheffield S3 7RA
tel: 0114 222 4907
fax: 0114 2222 888
http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/peter-thompson
Quoting Frank Finlay <[log in to unmask]>:
> Dear Erica, Colleagues
>
> I am drafting a letter on our (AGS) behalf to HEFCE in relation to
> the current composition of the REF panel and will share with you
> tomorrow, all being well. To take Ron's point it will make reference
> to how many departments have voiced their concern.
>
> In haste but with best wishes,
>
> Frank
>
> ________________________________________
> From: JISCmail German Studies List [[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of Carter, Erica [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 05 March 2011 12:59
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: FW: AGS consultation
>
> Dear all,
>
> I take the point about a boycott alienating the public. On the other
> hand, internal lobbying of HEFCE, necessary as it is, also keeps our
> expressions of concern safely under wraps and out of the public eye.
> We seem to forget that the public also consists in part of people who
> support us in our efforts to sustain the language disciplines, and
> German in particular. We know we have friends in the arts, in the
> business community at home and abroad (viz. the European Commission's
> 2008 Languages mean Business report), among humanities scholars (the
> British Academy etc.), among school teachers and students of German -
> not to mention our own students, who are often the most passionate
> advocates of teaching and reseaarch in German.
>
> Piecemeal lobbying also puts us in a position of rivalry with other
> languages disciplines. We are all jostling for position to make sure
> we get proper representation on the REF panels - but is the only
> strategy really just to join the fray and try to raise the quota of
> German panel members, possibly to the detriment of other languages?
>
> Opposition to what we perceive as the skewed and divisive politics of
> the REF might be more effective, it seems to me, if it took place in
> the context first of a collective response from German in particular
> to HEFCE's REF plans, and second, of a larger public defence of
> research and teaching not just in German, but across Modern Languages.
>
> On the former issue, who would join me in sending a jointly signed
> letter of concern to HEFCE?
>
> On the latter, I'm sure I'm not the only one of us who's been looking
> with interest at the Campaign for the Humanities, and the series of
> public events they've been holding (including one last week at
> CRASSH) on various issues relating both to the humanities as a whole,
> and in one case to a particular discipline (Philosophy).
>
> The British Philosophical Association organised a panel in December
> with various prominent speakers including Martha Nussbaum, and Lord
> Rees (Astronomer Royal) (see
> http://humanitiesmatter.wordpress.com/category/events/.) So far
> though, the Campaign for the Humanities has done nothing specifically
> on languages. The British Academy did start the ball rolling for a
> renewal post-Browne of public debate on languages with the launch of
> the 'Language Matters More and More' report, as well as David
> Crystal's British Academy lecture on language diversity (see
> http://www.britac.ac.uk/events/events-2011.cfm). So how about an event
> that takes up the thread of discussions started at these BA events,
> run
> - if the campaign organisers are agreeable - under the auspices of the
> Campaign for the Humanities, and involving prominent public figures in
> a panel discussion on the language disciplines. Anyone up for this too?
>
> All the best,
>
> Erica
>
> Professor Erica Carter
> Department of German
> School of Arts and Humanities
> King's College London
> Strand
> London WC2R 2LS
> Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 2124
> FAX: +44 (0)20 7848 2089
> [log in to unmask]
> ________________________________________
> From: JISCmail German Studies List [[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of Ronald Speirs [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 05 March 2011 11:53
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: FW: AGS consultation
>
> Frank is surely right that the REF, flawed as it is, is the only game
> in town. Not to participate would simply mean that we'd get no chips
> at all.
>
> On the point of the panel make-up, however, it's worth remembering
> that the size of the post-bag on a particular issue tends to affect
> the views of those making a judgement. If colleagues in departments up
> and down the country believe that German is under-represented on the
> ML panel then the more departments and colleagues who write to HEFCE
> to complain, the more the REF organisers are likely at least to think
> again about this decision.
>
> Ron
>
> ________________________________________
> From: JISCmail German Studies List [[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of Frank Finlay [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 04 March 2011 17:27
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: FW: AGS consultation
>
> Peter, Colleaagues
>
> In relation to the 3* 4* thread: the important distinction is that
> HEFCE will not fund research rated below this level. That is a
> different proposition than research only of that level being submitted.
>
> Imagine Dr X with a profile of published 4 outputs rated, respectively
> 1@ 4* 1@ 3* and and 2@ 2* or lower.
>
> Were Dr X not to be submitted, the institution would pass on funding
> for the outputs at 3 and above.
>
> They would also lose Dr X's students, any grant funding and place in
> any potential impact case study, all of which would feed into the
> environment and impact scores which make up 45% of the overall
> submission (score).
>
> They would be plain daft to do so.
>
> That doesn't of course mean that our institutions will be deliberating
> on what quality thresholds will have to be met to allow for submission.
>
> As last time it is likely to be derived from a grade point average.
>
> In the above example Dr X would have 2.75 GPA. Depending on your
> institutional policy, that might suffice. Clearly other profiles are
> possible.
>
> Please take this as a hopefully helpful comment on the practicalities
> with a view to allaying concerns, not as an apology for the REF or
> indeed the multipliers which will be applied to divide up the money.
> HEFCE has already instructed that present funding for 2* will be
> reduced and redistributed across 3 and 4* for 11/12 and it is my
> understanding that there will be nothing for 2* thereafter.
>
> As to a boycott, given that the REF is there, in part, as with the RAE
> before it, to provide public accountability for the tax payer, I am
> not sure it would be an approach that would be particularly helpful to
> the cause of ML or Arts and Humanities in these austere times.
>
> Best, Frank
>
> Frank Finlay, Professor of German | Dean of the Faculty of Arts| The
> University of Leeds, UK | President, Association for German Studies in
> Great Britain and Ireland
>
> T: 0113 343 2687 | E: [log in to unmask] | W:
> http://www.leeds.ac.uk/german/staff/frank_finlay.htm
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: JISCmail German Studies List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Thompson
> Sent: 04 March 2011 16:54
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: FW: AGS consultation
>
> Ian and Erica
> Of course, if - as seems the case from the other thread on this list -
> we are only going to be able to submit 3* and 4* material then the
> overall number of submissions will be considerably lower.
> It seems to me that we are reaching a stage where we are being asked
> to jump through very smaller hoops held ever higher off the ground for
> ever diminishing resources. Might it not be time to start to think
> about modern languages or even humanities as a whole boycotting the
> whole sorry and stressful exercise? We are not performing circus
> poodles after all.
> Peter
>
> Dr Peter Thompson
> Director, Centre for Ernst Bloch Studies
> http://shef.ac.uk/ernstbloch/)
> Senior Lecturer in German
> Department of Germanic Studies
> Jessop West
> 1 Upper Hanover Street
> Sheffield S3 7RA
> tel: 0114 222 4907
> fax: 0114 2222 888
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/peter-thompson
>
>
>
>
> Quoting "Ian F. Roe" <[log in to unmask]>:
>
> > Dear Frank and all
> >
> > Although retirement next year will save me from the lunacy that is
> REF,
> > I can only agree with the criticisms that have been aired. It seems
> > rather curious that German departments seek to emphasise that even
> their
> > undergraduate courses are taught by staff who are an expert in the
> > particular field, yet when it is a matter of professional judgments
> > affecting millions of pounds of public money and even - dare one say
> -
> > the survival or otherwise of some parts of the sector, then suddenly
> two
> > colleagues are expected to cover the entire discipline.
> >
> > Regards, Ian
> >
> > From: JISCmail German Studies List
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carter, Erica
> > Sent: 02 March 2011 11:27
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: AGS consultation
> >
> > Dear Frank,
> >
> > I agree with Dan that this looks like a very skewed panel. Simply in
> > terms of workload, it is unworkable - there is no way that two
> people,
> > however committed and knowledgeable, can deal with the volume of
> > material likely to be submitted. And there is of course also an
> > issue
> of
> > coverage. We will all have personal axes to grind on this question -
> my
> > own would be the absence of significant representation on
> > German-language film - but that could be dealt with if there was
> > critical mass for German on the panel.
> >
> > Since there is so much at stake here for the discipline, we surely
> need
> > to protest as vigorously as possible at this point. I understand
> > that you don't want to add to members' inboxes, but if you're to
> > make representation on our behalf, it would make sense for those of
> > us who want to see the panel changed to add our names to a list. So
> > count me in.
> >
> > Erica
> >
> >
> > Professor Erica Carter
> > Department of German (Incoming HOD)
> > School of Arts and Humanities
> > King's College London
> > The Strand
> > London
> > WC2R 2LS
> >
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