Dave,

There are several issues in play here, just to respond briefly to a few 
points...

1) Re news coverage of current events, it seems to be that the problem 
is one of reporters grasping at causality. This is to say that, for 
example, a high profile domestic abuse case which occurs in a US Muslim 
household is likely to be discussed in relation to 'Islam's treatment of 
women', whereas a similar case in a Baptist household is quite unlikely 
to draw scrutiny to the Baptist denomination. Press coverage of the 
Cornwall case you mention sounds quite similar in its fixation on occult 
activity.

2) As for reflexivity, it of course arises for both 
practitioners/believers and non-p/b's. As a non-Muslim I certainly have 
to deal with issues of authority -- i.e. on what grounds can I speak 
authoritatively about Islam -- in dealing with both Muslim and 
non-Muslim students. Similarly, Muslim colleagues of mine often take 
great pains not to appear as apologists or proselytizers.

3) It's interesting to speculate as to how Crowley might have 
manipulated (or abstained from) the today's mechanics of celebrity. The 
fact remains, however, that Crowley avidly engaged in drug use and sex 
with multiple partners of various genders - activities which he 
explicitly linked to his occult practices. These are behaviors which 
still meet with considerable disapprobation in several quarters of 
society today, and I wonder to what extent and why modern commentators 
on AC might strive to dissociate Thelema and other wings of occultism 
from such activities (or other wings of occultism from AC!). Somewhat 
similarly, it is a fact that many 'mainstream' expressions of Islam 
convey teachings about such things as gender relations that people 
raised in Western liberal traditions can find quite discomfiting.

Thanks for the CESNUR link. I'll skip the Italian stuff but French is a 
necessary evil in my line of research.

Best,
Noah

On 2/6/2011 3:55 PM, D E wrote:
> Excellent question Noah
>
> i've changed the thread title as it will become a broader debate than 
> just BOTL i hope
>
> I spent a lot of my thesis in a complex unpicking of broader consensus 
> (by which i meant christian) morality and trying to relate that to 
> magick (still not sure if that part worked)
>
> there is also the reflexivity issue of studying something which you 
> also practice, as in the 'of course they'll defend it, they are 
> insiders'- kind of remark from some audiences
>
> having liuttle to do with the media is one strategy, or having 
> something to do with members of the media you trust might be more 
> constructive - 'occulture' seems to be gradually gaining ground so far 
> as balanced reporting goes in some areas of the press and tv (Harry 
> Potter might even be partly responsble...) which is perhaps why this 
> Welsh case is making a few antennae twitch as it could be yet anothe 
> rrepeat of the lazy cut and paste journalism we've seen so often with 
> Crowleyan issues in particualr and bad pagan press in general
>
> There was also the death of a pagan in Cornwall a few years back who 
> drowned, butr his body was washed up weeks later with what were 
> considered to be "ritual injuries" and a big hooha ensued. H'ed been 
> bashed around in the sea for weeks, and yet nobody seemed to want to 
> be parsimonious about where the likely injuries came from (impacts 
> with rocks and piers). The case turned out to be centered around a 
> rather mundane love triangle and some dodgy insurance claims and as i 
> recall fizzled out, but for weeks the papers were all "black magic 
> murder" this and "killed by witchcraft" that.
>
> Crowley was a publicity hound in the 1920s etc because he knew how to 
> play the media as it was then, i suspect he'd not be so overt if he 
> were alive today, with the internet and 24 hour rolling news coverage 
> today, as every last cough and fart of a celeb or infamous person 
> seems to be on google if you look hard enough
>
> Cesnur conferences have a rolling theme of cults and NRMs, and where 
> the dividing lines might be, plus a lot of stuff about relative 
> moralties, there might be some clues in the various conference papers 
> they have on their site http://www.cesnur.org/
>
> but for sure, a tricky balancing act and a very thought-provoking 
> question
>
> Dave E
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noah Gardiner" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 8:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Book of the Law in News 4 wrong 
> reason
>
>
>> I've been watching this discussion with great interest, as it first 
>> seemed that many on this list were primarily  concerned with 'bad 
>> publicity' regarding Liber AL that might arise from this incident. I 
>> found that reaction somewhat odd, given that Crowley never seemed too 
>> concerned with making peace with the dominant public morality, to put 
>> it lightly. I'm guess I'm curious as to what extent academics and 
>> other writers on occultism, NRM etc. feel the need to act as 
>> defenders of the 'normalcy' or 'good morality' of the people involved 
>> in these movements, and to go about distinguishing the 'real' 
>> practitioners from the 'nutters'.
>>
>> This strikes close to home for me as I work and teach in Islamic 
>> studies, where we're often accused of being apologists for Islam at 
>> points where it comes into conflict with Western liberalism, or in 
>> debates surrounding the presence of some kind of intrinsic 
>> relationship between Islam and terrorism. From my own point of view, 
>> such accusations typically  come from people who either have little 
>> in-depth knowledge of the subject and/or are pushing other political 
>> agendas that rely on fear of Muslims, but there certainly are people 
>> in my field who prefer to entirely gloss over these issues ( I 
>> certainly don't claim to be perfect in regard to any of this).
>>
>> So my question is, how do academics and writers on occultism etc. 
>> balance defending their subjects from outright slander and tabloid 
>> sensationalism while still accounting for beliefs and practices that 
>> may run drastically counter to prevailing norms?
>>
>> - Noah
>>
>> On 2/6/2011 5:56 AM, Caroline Tully wrote:
>>> Hi Mogg,
>>>
>>>>> The core issue for me is the criminality&  child abuse,<<
>>> Dare I call it "sex with those of an inappropriate age"? as they 
>>> weren't
>>> exactly children were they? Weren't they 15 and 16? I always think 
>>> of people
>>> 12 and under as "children" - however that doesn't mean that legal 
>>> terms will
>>> agree with me (in Australia you're a "youth" until 25, but the word 
>>> "youth"
>>> seems much younger than that).
>>>
>>> I have just noticed that over the years some occultists have gotten 
>>> in awful
>>> trouble and been called "child molesters" for having sex with what are
>>> essentially teenagers. Yes, some teenagers are more mature than 
>>> others. I'd
>>> imagine that I'd have found it very weird to have had sex with 
>>> someone who
>>> was even over 20 when I was a teenager, but some don't.
>>>
>>> Yes, it does seem manipulative for a much older person to have sex 
>>> with a
>>> teenager - some/manytimes. I've already been lectured on another 
>>> list in
>>> regards to Gavin and Yvonne Frost and the "let adult members of the 
>>> coven
>>> break the virgins in" philosophy. Someone on another list, in 
>>> regards to the
>>> Frosts, told me that in the 60s it was considered ideal for "older 
>>> wiser"
>>> adults to give virgins their first taste of sex.
>>>
>>> So... all I'm saying is that it might be a bit more complicated in 
>>> regards
>>> to the teenagers in this case, but then again it might not.
>>>
>>> ~Caroline.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of mandrake
>>> Sent: Sunday, 6 February 2011 9:42 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Book of the Law in News 4 wrong 
>>> reason
>>>
>>> Caroline
>>>
>>> The core issue for me is the criminality&  child abuse,
>>> the other contextual stuff we maybe all tend to think of as less 
>>> important,
>>> perhaps underestimating the role external things play in influencing
>>> behaviour?
>>>
>>> There may well be some quite antisocial beliefs in Liber Al, Liber Oz
>>> and other Thelemic writing -
>>> I suspect most religious/inspired  texts have them - so for example the
>>> Bhagavad Gita appears to advocate
>>> total war but it was the non violent Gandhi's favourite text.
>>> Difference is that Bhagavad Gita is sanctified by time -
>>> so the glosses and interpretations now are as well known as the literal
>>> text.
>>> Even so the moral messages of Liber Al ought to make sense to modern
>>> society -
>>> and maybe they don't.  If anything Thelemites often talk of being 
>>> amoral -
>>> or of the triumph of the will?
>>> We are maybe stuck with a scripture that just isn't subtle enough for
>>> the modern world?
>>>
>>> "Love and do what you will"
>>>
>>> Mogg Morgan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 05/02/2011 22:42, Caroline Tully wrote:
>>>> Although it could all be true(ish). It's not the first time nutters 
>>>> have
>>>> gone even nuttier with the help of a religious text.
>>>>
>>>> And that brings up the question, to me anyway: How do we interpret The
>>> Book
>>>> of the Law? It's tricksy and poetic, people think they know what it 
>>>> means,
>>>> but do they? Does it mean anything at all?
>>>>
>>>> ~Caroline.
>>>>
>