Hi toyin,

  you're welcome, my apologies for going all professorial in the 1st
response, it was late and I wanted to get it written as clearly as
possible at short notice.

Why necessary? A variety of reasons, some of which I cover in the
response to Caroline on the 'goetia' thread. These have to do with
integrating older sources with their later forms, and also cross
cultural compatibility (where the western revival is junior to living
traditions, and needs to adapt accordingly). Any error of
understanding requires correction in an academic sense of course, so
as magic attempts or claims to be becoming more rigorous in its
handling of history, certain salient points require addressing. Many
of these concern grimoire magic and its origins.

These are particularly urgent as the grimoires represent the only
truly continuous strand in the entire magical revival. Misunderstand
their background and origins and we descend further into what I
consider - forgive me - solipsist nonsense and unhistorical faux
tradition. Without this re-examination there is no connection to real
tradition, and limited ability for meaningful cross cultural exchange
in the emergent global synthesis. This is a cultural movement in which
already the Western Revival does not play an important role compared
to developments outside the English speaking Protestant sphere where
the revival largely originated.

In order to participate in a cultural interchange, it is necessary to
possess a (magical) culture of our own, otherwise we are reduced to
superficial eclecticism, and open to charges of cultural
appropriation. Goetia is the West's inherited magical culture, hence
its importance.

ALWays

Jake

On 18 June 2010 02:02, toyin adepoju <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Thank you very much.I will read these.I will also send to the group some
> articles I have found that seem to confirm the use of "the word goetia to
> describe 'low' magic of the grimoire type".
>
> Could I bother your further to shed more light on this "A practitioners
> appraisal of this deeper goetic background...is
> necessary"
>
> thanks
> toyin
>
> On 18 June 2010 01:43, Jake Stratton-Kent <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>>
>> These provide a good start at the classical background:
>>
>> Restless Dead - Sarah Iles Johnston - University of California Press -
>> 1999
>> Greek and Roman Necromancy - Daniel Ogden - Princeton University Press -
>> 2001
>> Magic, Witchcraft and Ghosts - Daniel Ogden - OUP
>> Magic in the Ancient Greek World - Derek Collins - Blackwell Publishing -
>> 2008
>>
>> The first of the Ogden titles also has the virtue of major quotations
>> from period sources on classical magic. As does:
>>
>> Arcana Mundi - Georg Luck - John Hopkins University Press - (2nd Edition
>> 2006)
>>
>> In the Renaissance Period both Mirandola and Agrippa use the word
>> goetia to describe 'low' magic of the grimoire type, this
>> characterises a second phase but is close in meaning. The word
>> underwent devaluation early on, Burkert has an important untranslated
>> essay placing the 'goes' in the context of the so-called 'Greek
>> shamans debate' in academia (see Eliade, Dodds et al). A practitioners
>> appraisal of this deeper goetic background has yet to emerge, and is
>> necessary.
>>
>> ALWays
>>
>> Jake
>>
>> On 18 June 2010 01:22, toyin adepoju <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> > Thanks Jake,for this effort at clarification.Would you want to suggest
>> > any
>> > texts,both primary and secondary,that could give some insight into this
>> > classical tradition of the Goetia?
>> >
>> > It would be most helpful to me for my research.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> > Toyin
>> >
>> > On 18 June 2010 00:25, Jake Stratton-Kent
>> > <[log in to unmask]>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The traditional understanding of goetia is unfortunately not that
>> >> which is generally understood, which is scarcely even early modern in
>> >> vintage.
>> >>
>> >> There are semantic and historical problems here, there is - of course
>> >> - a book called 'The Goetia of Solomon' (circa 1640). Its title has
>> >> been conflated with a much older word, 'goetia', an important term
>> >> with a definite history. It has strong associations with Platonic and
>> >> Orphic cosmologies, as well as the 'low Hermeticism' of the magical
>> >> papyri. While not a single unified doctrine this background possesses
>> >> the coherence of any well developed tradition, whether 'folk' or
>> >> 'literary'. This is part of the much neglected 'classical' background
>> >> of Western magic, a neglect that ironically was not characteristic of
>> >> the Christian Cabalists & Renaissance magicians. They are nevertheless
>> >> often cited in justification for modern reliance on 'generic qabalah'
>> >> as being 'traditional'.
>> >>
>> >> The spirits originally associated with goetic magic have definite
>> >> characteristics and hierarchical strata. Insofar as the grimoires are
>> >> a goetic genre, the 'Goetia of Solomon' has no particular claim on
>> >> such spirits either in their older or later guises. There is also,
>> >> incidentally, no such thing as 'goetic spirits'; the usage cannot be
>> >> called an evolution of language so much as a degradation of a
>> >> terminology both practitioners and academics need to understand
>> >> properly. Goetia refers to the type of magic performed by a 'goes',
>> >> for it obtains its name from the practitioner, the spirits involved
>> >> require different terms.
>> >>
>> >> Jake
>> >>
>> >> http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 17 June 2010 23:39, toyin adepoju <[log in to unmask]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Along with the metaphysical interpretation and magical use of the
>> >> > concept of
>> >> > the Qlipoth,it might be relevant to explore the interpretation and
>> >> > use
>> >> > of
>> >> > other spiritual forms traditionally understood as demonic,such as the
>> >> > Goetic
>> >> > spirits from the book of Solomon the King as well as Lucifer,who,of
>> >> > course
>> >> > might be understood as   the head of the section of the Tree
>> >> > represented
>> >> > by
>> >> > the Qlipoth.One needs to note though,that interpretations of the
>> >> > Qlipoth
>> >> > as
>> >> > part of a schematic cosmology are more precise than those of the
>> >> > Goetia
>> >> > which does not seem to have a detailed cosmology behind it.
>> >> >
>> >> > An innovative understanding of the Goetia, which needs to be
>> >> > complemented by
>> >> > its traditional understanding, is the work of Mark Dunn at
>> >> > www.goetia-girls.com.
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jake
>>
>> http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/
>
>



-- 
Jake

http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/