On 30 June 2010 20:37, Ted Hand <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I've read Karlsson, he's earnest and grapples with a little bit of Kabbalah
> scholaship in order to develop his theories. I imagine it would be a useful
> text for anybody who wants to practice this stuff (whatever its
> historical-mystical provenance and ontological status!)  and I'm sure it
> deserves study in terms of this interesting question of how people receive
> and transmute magical ideas. I didn't realize he was involved with the
> Therion folks.
>

he isn't, I haven't heard so much as a 93 from those of his associates
I've met, who are interested and informed on traditional magic,
alongside their more modern interests. They tell me I think like a
Swede, presumably complimentary ;)
Where we disagree is in associating grimoire spirits with the qlipoth,
but that has become common enough in the wake of Mathers and Crowley.
Indeed there is a spirit called 'Klepoth' in a Solomonic text, it
likely meant little more than 'spirit' in the understanding of the
Gentile composer.

Jake


> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Mark Shekoyan <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>>
>> For a totally nonacademic, but entertainly odd attempt to use the
>> "Qlippoth" as a vehicle for magic, check out Thomas Karlson's book:
>>
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/Qabalah-Qliphoth-Goetic-Thomas-Karlsson/dp/0972182012
>>
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Karlsson
>>
>>
>> Somebody's got Grant Envy...
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: "nagasiva yronwode, YIPPIE Director" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Wed, June 30, 2010 11:40:35 AM
>> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Qlippoth and Magic
>>
>> hi Ted,
>>
>> thanks for taking the time to talk with me about this.
>>
>> Ted Hand <[log in to unmask]>
>> > ...The GD folks read a lot into the english
>> > translation, once produced.
>>
>> did they? I wonder about that. I don't see many records
>> of Golden Dawn people doing much with qliphotic demons in
>> their materials, or goetic demons in their early writings,
>> for that matter. the bulk of them are interest in angelic
>> magic and this includes the Enochian angels after Dee.
>>
>> > I'm not aware of any kind of satanic "qliphotic magic"
>> > in the Kabbalist or Christian Cabalist sources.
>>
>> i doubt it will be found, but cannot be sure.
>>
>> > I've been immersed in Pico for a couple years
>> > working on my MA, been over the researches of Idel,
>> > Wirszubski, Busi, and other on Pico's Hebrew sources,
>> > and I'm not aware of anything about the "shells."
>>
>> I have also not seen anything in my meager readings.
>>
>> > Cabala after Pico gets more magical (see the
>> > excellent work of Zambelli, and recent articles
>> > about Reuchlin's theurgy) and more of the
>> > grimoire/conjuring type from Jewish magic
>> > comes in,
>>
>> I gather there's a median zone where some of what
>> is called 'Jewish' is actually Christian reflection
>> or feedback controversy (compare the various things
>> called 'Cabala/Qabalah/whatever' that aren't Jewish),
>> whether struggling with Christian notions of religion
>> and demonology, such as may be seen in the 20th century,
>> or promoting ideas about Solomonic magic as demon-summoning
>> (post-Catholic?), possibly as part of subverson ideology.
>>
>> that's part of what this dovetails into, is presentation
>> and religious displacement, as competing groups (esp.
>> Jews where Christians are concerned) are demonized and
>> worse, and some of it is taken up in rebelliion or in
>> curiosity. I expect Jewish mysticism would not touch
>> either aspect of this, in part because of the dangers
>> and their typical role as *target* of demonization.
>>
>> > but in all my travels amongst the later Christian
>> > Cabalists
>>
>> I will assume you're talking about books here, rather
>> than about interviewing Cabalists in modern times.
>>
>> > I've not come across any magic treating of the
>> > Kelim or Kelipot or whatever.
>>
>> it may be this part that Jake is criticizing, and if
>> so i can concur with his assessments: the dualism is
>> more recent, used for sociopolitical purposes, and
>> only more recently, from what i can tell, taken up
>> in defiance against a nattering, condemnatory culture.
>> my scan of Scholem indicates that magic is a portion
>> only of Kabbalah, and this i have never seen described
>> as either nefarious or somehow drawing on demonic
>> energies, but always theurgic and G-d-oriented.
>>
>> > Generally the dark side is something to become
>> > aware of, not exploit.
>>
>> within devout religion (Judaism especially) i presume
>> this is quite accurate, but have no familiarity with
>> the social milieu which constitutes the Kabbalah at
>> any point. I've only met a few who claimed their
>> instruction of it at the feet of rabbis. my impression
>> is that "the dark side" is a dualistic notion which
>> is less popularly known in Judaism and more the
>> province of Christians and those who are struggling
>> against the moralism and cosmology of Christian
>> culture for some reason (whether in lapsed
>> exploration/blaspheming which i associate with
>> de facto Satanism, or with some kind of Humanist
>> skeptical experiment).
>>
>> the exploitation motive and mechanism which i have
>> seen promoted or popularized most strongly within
>> the occult subculture is that of the Lesser Key of
>> Solomon after Waite ("The Book of Black Magic and
>> Pacts") and his partial exposure, and especially
>> after Shah ("The Secret Lore of Magic") and the
>> more recent consult with the various monographs.
>>
>> > Most of the interesting theurgic, grimoire,
>> > conjuring type sources seem to self-identify
>> > as good magic,
>>
>> yes, that is also my observation, though i think
>> there is a gray area for the GD in that they were
>> also exploring (at least stories of) aggressive
>> magical assault, and sex magic as they knew it.
>>
>> > and I'm not aware of any connection to the
>> > "Qliphot" in any of the darker medieval
>> > magical sources.
>>
>> there is room to question how "dark" these were
>> and how old they were also. who was actually
>> doing something with them, as compared, like
>> today's "Necronomicon", with having spooky books
>> and putting on the guise of the dark magic worker
>> within a culture condemning it as immoral. after
>> all, a good number of the grimoires are from the
>> standpoint of a mage wielding the Jewish and/or
>> Christian deity's power in order to interact with
>> or constrain what they characterize as demons. in
>> Fanger's "Conjuring Spirits" and in Kieckhefer's
>> "Forbidden Rites" we can find definite rebellious
>> and even demonic activities, but to my read so far
>> is that these are never Jews shifting to "fallen"
>> angels (as described, say, within pseudepigrapha)
>> or to "demons" (say, to somehow engage Lilitu;
>> maybe at worst that of a not completely safe angel
>> like Samael), but always Christians who either
>> want to test their own power (if the accounts
>> are accurate) or want to freak people out by
>> their contentions/manuals.
>>
>> > Which brings me back to the question, how in the
>> > heck did Mathers and crew get the notion?
>>
>> oh that's pretty easy. the Lesser Key of Solomon
>> and other grimoires have demonic engagement ideas
>> and the appropriation of the Kabbalah hadn't
>> proceeded sufficiently to ferret out notions of
>> possible *Jewish demonology* excepting the
>> aforementioned pseudepigrapha (Noah, Enoch), or
>> folk repulsion of Lilith in protection of children.
>> these cosmological speculations by Luria probably
>> caught their interests, especially as they mention
>> 'arch-devils'. I would ask why it is that Luria
>> is describing these orders and arch-devils, and
>> where he got *his* information. was Luria strongly
>> influenced by Weir or some earlier dualist Christian?
>> from my brief read it looks like they were rough
>> contemporaries but unlikely to have had cross-over.
>>
>> > It doesn't seem like it existed in any traceable
>> > form in Jewish or Christian Kabbalah.
>>
>> the ideas of demons obviously does, if von Rosenroth
>> can be translated to incorporate "demons" and "devils".
>> what are the Jewish terms von Rosenroth provides in
>> Latin? what were the Latin terms Mathers gives in English?
>> that seems to me where to take up the trail of Qabalistic
>> demonology back possibly to Christian Cabalistic demonology
>> (if von Rosenroth was doing more than issuing translation)
>> and thence to Lurianic demonology (why have these ideas?
>> you're probably right, for awareness/avoidance/protective
>> purposes and aims). does Luria provide more information,
>> and if so, what kind? Grant takes 777 and runs heavily
>> with notions that the qliphotic are disease-oriented,
>> and i am not aware that he clearly elucidates why he
>> has arrived at this conclusion.
>>
>> > But my knowledge of the field ends at the 17th century.
>>
>> Mr. Copenhaver seems to stop there also, proclaiming
>> that "the mechanical philosophy" has displaced "the
>> occult philosophy" sufficient that this is the end of
>> that chapter, at least, of occult activities. it is not
>> an uncommon posture to take in academic evaluations
>> of magic (treating them only in the distant past).
>>
>> > I don't know much about the 18th century stuff;
>> > seems like there may have been weird freemasonic
>> > cabalists with some kinda rosicrucian proto-GD
>> > qliphotic magic happening,
>>
>> beware of the intrusions of Taxil-hoax materials,
>> and the fulminations of Christian condemners. it's
>> very unlikely that what you described existed, from
>> what i can tell, and any representation of this kind
>> of 'dark side of cabala' would need quite a bit of
>> supportive data before it could convince me that it
>> it didn't proceed from imaginative Christians having
>> a gander at Albert Pike and his imaginative writing
>> and plagiarism of Levi (mid to late 1800s-early 1900s).
>>
>> the 18th century is when we may find people like
>> Antoine Court de Gebelin fashioning fantasies
>> of Ur pasts for the French king and incorporating
>> within "Monde primitif" notions of the Tarot game
>> being an ancient Egyptian esoteric remnant, setting
>> the stage for its adoption as a kabbalistic wonder,
>> integrated into arcane use and occult traditions of
>> very recent origins. what little i know about it
>> does not support the kind of 'Jewish demonology'
>> you suggest, though other kinds may well have
>> taken place.
>>
>> > I just couldn't trace it and wouldn't know where
>> > to look.
>>
>> I've suggested a few places in this email. I think
>> tracing Luria forward and backward would be helpful.
>> are there excellent academic evaluations of Luria,
>> and where he got is demonological framework? is it
>> original to him, for example? I don't rightly recall
>> how much is known about him and his life / practice
>> though i see a couple of texts about his life and
>> contributions (Klein, Fine) at wikipedia's page
>> about Isaac Luria.
>>
>> > I think of the GD as being more inspired by the
>> > spirit of folks like Cagliostro and Eliphas Levi
>> > than the pious, contemplative Cabalists.
>>
>> I'm not sure about Cagliostro, whose reputation is
>> possibly far more elaborate than his contribution.
>> at least Alphonse Louis Constant (Eliphas Levi) is
>> an author with definite assertions to be found,
>> though little i can discover of demonic character.
>> his Luciferian expositions are interesting, though
>> i have no idea what he, in his post-Catholic trial,
>> may have done to investigate the infernal.
>>
>> the Golden Dawn were certainly influenced by Levi,
>> but probably moreso they were influenced by Waite,
>> and especially Mackenzie (or whoever you would like
>> to say constructed the Cypher Manuscript that at
>> least Westcott tried to pass off in the Fraulein
>> Sprengel Ruse, Trithemian code and special paper to
>> boot). the Brotherhood of Luxor in the Americas is
>> an important precursor to both the GD and OTO, and
>> its participants, speculative and contemplative,
>> apparently (as compared to the actively practical),
>> were probably far more influential, at least
>> initially, than anything older other than
>> what i have already mentioned above.
>>
>> > thanks for your input on this thread.
>> > fascinating stuff.
>>
>> my pleasure. I appreciate being able to add something
>> of value here and hope that any errors that i am
>> likely to make given my lack of education will be
>> pointed out in a friendly fashion. one of the pitfalls
>> of individual studies in books and outside of academic
>> institutions is that i will of necessity be unaware of
>> important developments in revisioning the past, and my
>> best means of combatting these myopias is to take
>> chances here and hope for gentle correction. ;)
>>
>> > p.s. do you know about Brian Copenhaver's website?
>> > He's got all his publications on Renaissance
>> > Magic up there, plus some unpublished Pico
>> > translations.
>> > ...http://www.cmrs.ucla.edu/brian/index.htm
>>
>> no, thanks for mentioning this. wonderful.
>>
>> > Perfect complement to Joe Peterson's esoteric archives
>> > website
>>
>> this i had known about as well as his excellent
>> publications. am i to understand that Mr. Petersen's
>> publications and site material is of comparable
>> quality to those in academia issuing translations
>> and reflections on the past? I do not know if he
>> is working with academic institutions, though i
>> do very much like what he is doing and writing.
>>
>> > and Don Karr's bibliographical surveys on
>> > the study of KBL in English
>>
>> I don't know much about Mr. Karr. do you? I have
>> seen his web site and these few pdfs and haven't
>> sufficient familiarity with him or his work to know
>> from whence he proceeds or what support he brings
>> to his subjects of study.
>>
>> very much appreciated,
>>
>> nagasiva yronwode ([log in to unmask]), Director
>>   YIPPIE*! -- http://www.yronwode.org/
>> -----------------------------------------------------
>>   *Yronwode Institution for the Preservation
>>   and Popularization of Indigenous Ethnomagicology
>> -----------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>



-- 
Jake

http://www.underworld-apothecary.com/