This discussion brings up the issue of discursiveness in poetry. Some of
Ashbery's poetry would certainly qualify under this term as would Philip
Whalen, Alan Ginsberg, Jack Spicer, etc. etc. etc. Is there a clearly
defined border between discursiveness and 'slovenly and self-indulgent' or
does this extend into the murkiness that blends poetry with life at the
margins?
John Herbert Cunningham
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From: Poetryetc: poetry and poetics [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Tim Allen
Sent: April-15-10 5:37 AM
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Subject: Re: review of the new Les Murray
Not so sure about this Doug. I certainly recognize and agree with your
thoughts about reading others and application etc, but I still think
there is a certain aesthetic model at work in certain poetry circles
that values what we are calling slovenly and self-indulgent, though
they will obviously call this thing something else. The relation of
those values to the chosen form remains an open question.
Cheers
Tim A.
On 14 Apr 2010, at 21:07, Douglas Barbour wrote:
> Well, it certainly has nothing to do with what forms the poets
> choose (or are chosen by the writing) to write in; it has to do with
> whether or not they have read widely, learned from their reading, &
> then applied themselves to making each poem as sharp, cutting,
> shapely, etc, as possible. If they havent done so, then the reading
> will feel self-indulgent; if they have, in all ways (& innovative
> works for me, Tim), then likely a reader/listener such as I will
> enjoy it as not being so.
>
> Doug
> On 14-Apr-10, at 8:47 AM, Tim Allen wrote:
>
>> Now this is interesting Uche. The 'slovenly self-indulgence' you
>> have to suffer at so many poetry readings. I know exactly what you
>> are talking about and the phrase you use is perfect. So what is
>> this 'slovenly self-indulgence'?
>>
>> Any answers out there?
>
> Douglas Barbour
> [log in to unmask]
>
> http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/
>
> Latest books:
> Continuations (with Sheila E Murphy)
> http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664
> Wednesdays'
>
http://abovegroundpress.blogspot.com/2008/03/new-from-aboveground-press_10.h
tml
>
> The secret
>
> which got lost neither hides
> nor reveals itself, it shows forth
>
> tokens.
>
> Charles Olson
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