Thanks very much John and Anne. I agree with that we should be wary of
claiming priority for the 16th century. For another possible example,
Chaucer's Troilus and Criseyde comes to mind--the explicit lovemaking
scene. And, for that matter, The Reeve's Tale and the fabliau tradition
in general. (Incidentally, I have a medievalist standing behind
me--literally--as I write.) I guess my earlier point was simply that
examples of nakedness in poetry probably are not new to English
literature in Marlowe's generation.
Best,
Raphael
Raphael Falco
Professor of English
University of Maryland, Baltimore County
1000 Hilltop Circle
Baltimore, MD 21250
Tel: 410-455-2919
Fax: 410-455-1030
[log in to unmask]
Anne Prescott wrote:
> I too had thought of the Miller's Tale--and all the more because there
> was more nudity in the Middle Ages than we always remember, esp. (I
> imagine) before the Little Ice Age started. I read an article
> somewhere about the surprising persistence, even after the fall of
> Rome, of public baths--you could go through the street starkers while
> clutching your clothes. As for H&L I always get nervous about claims
> of priority because I'd like a medievalist to confirm it. Of course
> Marlowe translated Ovid's /Amores/--there's nudity and lying around in
> bed there too. If anyone ever wants an English Renaissance picture of
> a nearly naked guy (just a hat and a loincloth) try the opening
> illustration of Andrew Borde's /The Introduction of Knowledge/, which
> has an almost nude Englishman with a large pair of shears about to cut
> himself some foreign fashion. But my point is simply that we may need
> a medievalist to confirm Marlowe's priority--not a modest period (not
> with talking genitalia, at least in France; at least in H&L it's human
> beings who talk, not their naughty bits).
> And I bet Venus and Mars were naked when Vulcan threw his net
> over them and summoned all the gods to laugh. But nudity remains a
> good topic--you could also quote Herrick on his mistress, telling her
> "away with silks, away with lawn, / I'll have no scenes or curtains
> drawn. / Give me my mistress as she is, / Dressed in her nak'd
> simplicities." And there's Aretino's "I Positi" or whatever with the
> illustrations of naked lovers. As I point out to my students in a
> course on Eros in the Renaissance, the poor lady sometimes has a
> really pained expression. Comparing nudity in Marlowe and in paintings
> might be fun, too. And see /Amores/ I.5--if he tears her clothes off
> then I bet he's naked too, although he coyly leaves the rest to our
> imagination.
> Sorry to jabber on. A fascinating topic, and the stuff on Gawain
> is something I hadn't thought of. Anne.
>
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 10:16 AM, John Leonard wrote:
>
>> Dear Raphael,
>>
>> Are you sure that Bertilak's wife slips naked into bed with Gawain?
>> If she did that, Gawain's test would be much blunter than I have
>> always taken it to be. It may well be the case (indeed I think it is
>> the case) that Gawain is naked under the sheets, but she does not see
>> his nakedness even though she puts him in an embarrassing position.
>> But she herself is surely clothed and she sits on the edge of the
>> bed (doesn't she?), which is not the same as getting into it. When
>> she says "ye are welcum to my cors" there is a saving ambiguity
>> (beautifully discussed by John Burrow) that allows her words to mean
>> "you are a welcome guest and I am at your service" rather than "here
>> is my body. Help yourself". If she were naked in the bed with
>> Gawain, her words would be sharpened away from ambiguity and the
>> delicacy of the comedy would be lost. But Gawain's (hidden)
>> nakedness is suggestive and I think it can be connected with Hero's
>> attempt to hide her nakedness under the sheets in H&L. Thanks for
>> making the connection!
>>
>> All best,
>>
>> John
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Raphael Falco" <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:41 AM
>> Subject: Re: Paper topics on Hero and Leander
>>
>>
>>> Not to quibble--nakedness is an excellent topic linking Marlowe and
>>> Milton--but don't Nicholas and Alisoun appear naked (more or less)
>>> in The Miller's Tale? Or aren't they naked enough? There's also
>>> Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, where Bertilak's wife slips naked
>>> into bed with Gawain.
>>> Best,
>>> Raphael
>>>
>>> Raphael Falco
>>> Professor of English
>>> University of Maryland, Baltimore County
>>> 1000 Hilltop Circle
>>> Baltimore, MD 21250
>>> Tel: 410-455-2919
>>> Fax: 410-455-1030
>>> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John Leonard wrote:
>>>> i have just returned from Venice to find this super question in my
>>>> mailbox. A topic that I find very useful (especially for a
>>>> question linking Marlowe and MIlton) is nakedness. H &L is perhaps
>>>> the first poem in English in which the two main characters appear
>>>> naked (albeit not at the same time) and this makes for lively
>>>> comparison with Milton's Adam and Eve (Milton's lament "O how
>>>> unlike to that first naked glory" is a direct echo of Marlowe, and
>>>> the Marlovian phrase to which he alludes--"where Venus in her naked
>>>> glory strove / To please"--also influences another of Milton's
>>>> memorable descriptions of nakedness:
>>>> the fairest goddess feigned
>>>> Of three that in Mount Ida naked strove
>>>> Marlovian nakedness can also be related to questions about shame,
>>>> modesty, embarrassment, pride etc. etc. Students love to write on
>>>> this topic and their essays are actually fun to read.
>>>> Best,
>>>> John Leonard
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> *From:* william oram <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 07, 2010 2:13 PM
>>>> *Subject:* Paper topics on Hero and Leander
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone have any interesting paper topics on Hero and Leander?
>>>> I'm out of inspiration. Bill Oram
>
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