I'm not sure what you mean by discursive. I can't think of a
definition of the term that would include Spicer. For the others, do
you mean rambling? Not a good fit either.
Best,
Mark
At 07:47 AM 4/15/2010, you wrote:
>This discussion brings up the issue of discursiveness in poetry. Some of
>Ashbery's poetry would certainly qualify under this term as would Philip
>Whalen, Alan Ginsberg, Jack Spicer, etc. etc. etc. Is there a clearly
>defined border between discursiveness and 'slovenly and self-indulgent' or
>does this extend into the murkiness that blends poetry with life at the
>margins?
>John Herbert Cunningham
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Poetryetc: poetry and poetics [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>Behalf Of Tim Allen
>Sent: April-15-10 5:37 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: review of the new Les Murray
>
>Not so sure about this Doug. I certainly recognize and agree with your
>thoughts about reading others and application etc, but I still think
>there is a certain aesthetic model at work in certain poetry circles
>that values what we are calling slovenly and self-indulgent, though
>they will obviously call this thing something else. The relation of
>those values to the chosen form remains an open question.
>
>Cheers
>
>Tim A.
>
>On 14 Apr 2010, at 21:07, Douglas Barbour wrote:
>
> > Well, it certainly has nothing to do with what forms the poets
> > choose (or are chosen by the writing) to write in; it has to do with
> > whether or not they have read widely, learned from their reading, &
> > then applied themselves to making each poem as sharp, cutting,
> > shapely, etc, as possible. If they havent done so, then the reading
> > will feel self-indulgent; if they have, in all ways (& innovative
> > works for me, Tim), then likely a reader/listener such as I will
> > enjoy it as not being so.
> >
> > Doug
> > On 14-Apr-10, at 8:47 AM, Tim Allen wrote:
> >
> >> Now this is interesting Uche. The 'slovenly self-indulgence' you
> >> have to suffer at so many poetry readings. I know exactly what you
> >> are talking about and the phrase you use is perfect. So what is
> >> this 'slovenly self-indulgence'?
> >>
> >> Any answers out there?
> >
> > Douglas Barbour
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> > http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/
> >
> > Latest books:
> > Continuations (with Sheila E Murphy)
> > http://www.uap.ualberta.ca/UAP.asp?LID=41&bookID=664
> > Wednesdays'
> >
>http://abovegroundpress.blogspot.com/2008/03/new-from-aboveground-press_10.h
>tml
> >
> > The secret
> >
> > which got lost neither hides
> > nor reveals itself, it shows forth
> >
> > tokens.
> >
> > Charles Olson
Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University
of California Press).
http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland
"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of
Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so
effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United
States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in
English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The
Nation
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