Exactly. The point I was making is that any guesstimate of  
memorization percentages depend on the combination of people's reading  
skills.
H
On Mar 3, 2010, at 11:11 AM, Daniel Demski wrote:

> You could also leave out vowels for an advanced student and they could
> guess them; and of course vowel quantities do actually get left out.
> This might be true of even prepositions. There are lots of games that
> can be played with the redundancy of language, but it doesn't mean any
> individual thing which can be left out is actually unimportant. It's
> just easy to single out inflectional endings because that's something
> English doesn't do much.
>
> Memorizing endings is something a student will do even if allowed to
> look them up, given enough practice and a desire to improve. It's like
> when I learned to type; I had been looking at the keyboard while
> typing for years, but one day just decided not to look at the keys.
>
> Analogously, it is always beneficial to hesitate a few seconds before
> going to Wikipedia or a dictionary, just to test yourself. Students
> who want to improve their Latin should be encouraged to think a bit
> before looking things up. This step combined with enough practice
> seems to me to be what is necessary, but in today's Latin classroom,
> will there be enough practice for this to work? Perhaps forcing
> memorization is simply a good substitute when pressed for time!
>
> The above just IMHO,
> -Daniel Demski
>
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Helma Dik <[log in to unmask]>  
> wrote:
>> Dear Paolo,
>>
>> Once someone's knowledge of Latin syntax improves, you'll find  
>> that, if you
>> keep the order of the words as in the original, but just remove  
>> endings,
>> they need case endings less and less (I think Pinkster, Latin  
>> Syntax and
>> Semantics, reports on experiments with this). There is very little  
>> true
>> ambiguity because natural language is redundant. Of course, tenses  
>> and moods
>> are harder to guess -- you have to be a knowledgable reader to have  
>> a chance
>> of guessing the historic presents. Subjunctives, on the other hand,  
>> not that
>> hard to guess right.
>>
>> So you and your student could both be right at the same time. :-)   
>> And of
>> course, hard-ass teachers don't tell their students that case  
>> endings don't
>> matter much, since first of all, they don't realize this, and  
>> second, if
>> they do realize it, for a beginning reader, they're still an  
>> important help
>> in figuring things out..
>>
>> Helma
>>
>> On Mar 2, 2010, at 1:37 PM, Paolo Monella wrote:
>>
>>> Dar all,
>>>
>>> In Italy, in written tests on Latin (mostly consisting on  
>>> translations
>>> from Latin) students are allowed to use a dictionary. In the US, in
>>> Elementary Latin classes, this in not the case. Would you say that  
>>> Italian
>>> written tests are not challenging? I think that when a person has  
>>> checked
>>> out the dictionary entries for all words in a sentence, that is  
>>> the moment
>>> when his actual work on the text _begins_. The same could go with
>>> morphological analysis tools. It's more or less like allowing the  
>>> students
>>> to do their translations from Latin with their morphological  
>>> tables on their
>>> desk.
>>>
>>> I had a discussion with a student, last year, about what role is  
>>> played by
>>> memory in the study of Latin (expressed in percentage). He started  
>>> from over
>>> 70%. I had to fight quite a lot to bargain for less. The lowest I  
>>> could get
>>> was 50%. May I say that in my opinion he hasn't understood much of  
>>> the study
>>> of Latin. I dare to say that 10 or 20% would be more than enough.  
>>> To me,
>>> Latin is reasoning on syntax and on the actual meaning of a word  
>>> in the
>>> specific context.
>>>
>>> If a student knows that "amici" can be genitive singular,  
>>> nominative or
>>> vocative plural, I think that this helps him/her not much more  
>>> than knowing
>>> that "agere" can mean "to drive, govern, do, act, pursue, perform"  
>>> and so
>>> much more.
>>>
>>> At least, this is my approach to teaching Latin to non-specialists  
>>> (as a
>>> 'gym' for the mind). However, I have always been hunted by the  
>>> doubt that my
>>> approach is too 'soft-hearted': many think that memorisation  
>>> drills are the
>>> only way to turn a youngster into a tough Latinist. What do you  
>>> think?
>>>
>>> By the way, isn't it amazing how often digital humanities  
>>> questions make
>>> us think on the core issues of Classics in general?
>>>
>>> All best,
>>> Paolo
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>>>>
>>>> Datum: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 19:53:45 +0100
>>>> Von: Notis Toufexis <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> An: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Betreff: Re: [DIGITALCLASSICIST] Greek and Latin Online Reading  
>>>> Tools
>>>
>>>> Ι like the analogy ;-) Creating highly advanced technological  
>>>> services
>>>> for
>>>> humanities disciplines can only help save them (cf. what's  
>>>> happening with
>>>> Paleography or Modern Greek at KCL) in difficult times. I wonder  
>>>> however
>>>> if
>>>> "changing the kind of questions you ask" is how most classicists  
>>>> think...
>>>> N.
>>>>
>>>> On 2 March 2010 19:24, Gabriel Bodard <[log in to unmask]>  
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I suppose a way to turn this question around would be to say, what
>>>>> happens to our view of pedagogy in a world of ubiquitous  
>>>>> morphological
>>>>> analysis? Do we have to stop expecting rote learning of  
>>>>> vocabulary and
>>>>> morphology, or would that actually break our brain's ability to  
>>>>> learn
>>>>> a primarily literary language (as I am inclined to believe)?
>>>>>
>>>>> (This is analogous to the problem of how to hold a pub quiz with
>>>>> ubiquitous access to Google and Wikipedia. You change the kind of
>>>>> questions you ask, is how.)
>>>>>
>>>>> G
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2 March 2010 18:13, Notis Toufexis <[log in to unmask]>  
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I 've got the Alpheios tools installed in my Firefox for quite  
>>>>>> a while
>>>>>
>>>>> now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is what makes them interesting actually, they live in the  
>>>>>> browser
>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> spring to life once you visit a site with Latin or Greek – no  
>>>>>> need
>>>>
>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>> start
>>>>>>
>>>>>> additional software or pass your queries to other sites (its like
>>>>
>>>> having
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perseus or TLG morphological analysis links activated but in  
>>>>>> all sites
>>>>>
>>>>> with
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Greek or Latin). In ease of use it's the way to go.  
>>>>>> Pedagogically, I
>>>>
>>>> am
>>>>>>
>>>>>> still not convinced that providing automatic morphological  
>>>>>> analysis is
>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> best way to go – but I have to say that I haven't been  
>>>>>> involved much
>>>>
>>>> in
>>>>>>
>>>>>> teaching Latin or Greek in the last couple of years and I am  
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> traditional in my views, for what it's worth nowadays.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> N.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2 March 2010 19:04, Gabriel Bodard <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Forwarded for the below. I haven't tried this out yet--but if  
>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>
>>>> has
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (or does), the authors would like feedback. Comments onlist  
>>>>>>> and/or a
>>>>>>> write-up for the DC Wiki would also be welcome.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>> From: The Alpheios Project <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      Free reading and learning web tools released for Greek and
>>>>
>>>> Latin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      by the Alpheios Project.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Alpheios Project has released the first beta version of a  
>>>>>>> set of
>>>>>
>>>>> free
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> reading aids and learning tools for Classical Greek and Latin.  
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>
>>>>> source
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> code is also freely available to developers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The tools are intended to provide unusually convenient
>>>>
>>>> lexicographical
>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> grammatical support for anyone wishing to read HTML versions of
>>>>
>>>> original
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Greek and Latin texts, whether online or on a local computer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pedagogical
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> modules are currently being added for those who wish to learn  
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>> language.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We are also making available prototypes of several related  
>>>>>>> tools,
>>>>>
>>>>> including
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a graphical interface for treebank editing that can easily be  
>>>>>>> adapted
>>>>
>>>> to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> different annotation schemes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The reading tools and the initial pedagogical modules can be
>>>>
>>>> downloaded
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <http://alpheios.net/content/installation>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The other resources and prototypes currently in development  
>>>>>>> can be
>>>>>>> accessed at
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <http://alpheios.net/content/resources-under-development>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is hoped that these tools can facilitate consultation of  
>>>>>>> original
>>>>>
>>>>> texts
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> by scholars in other fields, provide customized options for  
>>>>>>> students
>>>>
>>>> who
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wish to learn the language through the study of specific  
>>>>>>> texts, and
>>>>>>> generally promote appreciation of the unique legacy of the  
>>>>>>> classical
>>>>>
>>>>> world.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An important feature of the tools is that their architecture was
>>>>>
>>>>> designed
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to facilitate the rapid addition of other resources, such as
>>>>
>>>> lexicons,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> grammars, and reference materials, and even other languages,
>>>>
>>>> especially
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> highly inflected ones where the value of such tools seems  
>>>>>>> especially
>>>>>>> compelling. To illustrate this flexibility we will also be  
>>>>>>> making
>>>>>
>>>>> modules
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> available for Arabic and Chinese; but our design goal was to  
>>>>>>> create
>>>>
>>>> an
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> infrastructure that would make the creation of similar tools  
>>>>>>> for any
>>>>>>> language as easy as possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We would greatly appreciate comments, suggestions and criticism
>>>>
>>>> because
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the tools are still in active development.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yours very truly,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Alpheios Team
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Dr. Notis Toufexis
>>>>>> http://www.toufexis.info
>>>>>> http://www.early-modern-greek.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Dr Gabriel BODARD
>>>>> (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist)
>>>>>
>>>>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities
>>>>> King's College London
>>>>> 26-29 Drury Lane
>>>>> London WC2B 5RL
>>>>>
>>>>> Email: [log in to unmask]
>>>>> Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388
>>>>> Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.digitalclassicist.org/
>>>>> http://www.currentepigraphy.org/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dr. Notis Toufexis
>>>> http://www.toufexis.info
>>>> http://www.early-modern-greek.org
>>>
>>> --
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>>