hola Pitch,
Pitch <[log in to unmask]>:
> I suspect that the members of these high-level categories
> --"Pagan"-- have only a very few characteristics or
> attributes in common.
I've been amused by the use of the term 'pagan' signifying
that a religion is not 'family' to Christian religious,
employed by Christians. I've noted that this appears to
have correlates in Jewish and Muslim religions, and has
carried forward into NRMs as well ('cowans', 'troglodytes').
other Christian terms, primarily used as part of subversion
ideologies ('witch', 'satanist') have likewise been taken
up as religious identifiers along with 'Pagan'. all of their
significances have been revised within an adherent context.
> Like many Pagans, I actually have little idea what
> these few attributes might be.
aren't these covered in study by NRMs academics?
perhaps they can provide some characteristic similarities
beyond the fact that these are modern (1950s+) in origin.
> But they do not seem to be attributes of philosophy
> or theology or life ways or "native" culture.
my guess is that there are some commonalities of
both class and ethnicity which are preponderant
(not definitive).
> Pagans are not "Pagans" because they attest to or
> believe in something as a category. ....
yes the NRMs do not appear to be doctrinal as a whole,
though certain subsets may be observed in common
sharing attestation as to the value of, or allegiance
with respect to, certain bodies of text (e.g. The
Satanic Bible, the Wiccan Rede) or principles of
cosmology (e.g. The Three-Fold Law of Return,
or the Law of Attraction).
> (Frankly, "Christo-Pagans" puzzle me a lot.)
I don't think it need do so. perhaps the reason it
is puzzling in part is because the 'Pagans' portion
is 're-used' by NRMs and thus in self-ID valence it
no longer indicates 'non-Christian'. it can thus
include elements of Christian religion, such as
deities, angels, saints, or others. in the new
smorgasboard there are Christo-Hindus like
Paramahamsa Yogananda and others more centrally
Christian, and varieties of religion which attempt
to bridge all manner of divide. it's fun! ;)
> I am, operationally speaking, reluctantly coming
> to the realization that "Pagan" is probably a term
> of (self) identification.
that's one of the excellent observations about the
NRMs: that a number of them are 'self-religions',
and participation is governed not so much by central
authorities, state religious bodies, etc., but at
least in part by the interest of the individual to
at least personally, and often outwardly, identify.
> Pagans are "Pagans" because they say they are.
> And not "Pagans" if they say they are not.
religious identification is something that i have
paid a great deal of attention to within my studies.
I would like to detail my conclusions thusfar and
see if anyone has comment on it for refinement:
there are two major categories of identification:
which have the following objective and subjective
sub-categories that i can discern:
A) group-ID:
1) objective
the identifying group studies religions
and uses criteria of conformance
an example here would be sociologists
attempting to describe or define people
by standards such as liturgy or doctrine
2) subjective
the identifying group is composed of
members of the same or a related group
this is 'recognition' and tends to
be keyed to behavioural integrity,
possibly catechism, etc.
B) self-ID:
1) objective
identified because of an ordeal:
a gating ritual or event of some kind
which serves to admit an adherent
by objective standards
2) subjective
identified because of an ideal:
a set of characteristics against which
as a standard they may be compared
what do you think? I can then evaluate your
assertion as to the value of attestation amongst
Pagans here by these *4* methodologies of
religious membership:
A1: simple attestation is usually not enough.
A2: attestion is likely a strong indicator.
B1: attestation is often an initial hurdle.
B2: attestation is an important ideal aspect.
that is, someone calling themself Pagan is likely going
to be taken seriously in terms of categorization by
a group of Pagans if their behaviours don't range too
far out of alignment to their notion of the ID, whereas
a group of sociologists studying Pagans are likely to
want to know more than merely their attestation.
when it comes to individual assessments, self-identification
is an important (at least initial) aspect of both the
ordeal-oriented and the ideal-oriented evaluator. Gardnerian
Wiccans (ordeal-oriented) typically expect their members to
self-identify as a Pagan. solitary book-initiated Cunningham
Wiccans may understand a bit of privacy about the identification
aspect, but will likely think of such a personal attestation
as a good indicator of Pagan ideals (as compared to hearing
them identify as a Buddhist, or Rastafarian).
of course all of this is complicated by the fact that Pagans
will in many cases retain Christian terminological notions
and anti-Christian rivalry such that, perhaps inclusively,
'Pagan' also means 'non-Christian' (thus even Pagans will
at times talk about Hindus as 'Pagans' though strictly
speaking and from a sociological evaluation (A1 above),
there is nothing which so qualifies Hindus, Buddhists,
etc., except that they are not Christian 'family'.
> Personally, I'm a little saddened by this attenuation
> of meaning. Not all that long ago (a couple or three
> decades), my experience was that "Pagan" held a more
> extensive and localizable significance, both for
> adherents and for researchers.
interesting. is it possible that part of this meaning
was wrapped in the glamour of romance in association
with pre-Christian and non-Christian religious? has
what researchers consider to be criteria of evaluation
changed over the course of the last few decades?
if so, in what way?
thanks,
nagasiva yronwode ([log in to unmask]), Director
YIPPIE*! -- http://www.yronwode.org/
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*Yronwode Institution for the Preservation
and Popularization of Indigenous Ethnomagicology
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