This (very interesting) discussion reminds me of the situation in Australia until 2007.
They had very strict caps on places for courses, and received a (low) fixed level of fee income per home student.
But this situation only applied to domestic (i.e. Australian) students.
The Universities were free to recruit as many overseas students as they wanted, and to freely set the fees.
The Universities then started to recruit domestic students - above the cap - and to charge them full (overseas) fees, making them domestic overseas students.
This got around the cap on student numbers, and avoided penalties for universities, and even proved a lucrative source of income for the universities.
With the obvious costs for social mobility and equity. It allowed you to literally buy your child's way all the way into the professions, not just to the age of 18 but to the professional qualification.
Rudd got rid of it as one of the first things they did as an incoming government.
Coming to Britain very soon, in all likelihood.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A forum for critical and radical geographers
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Kaucher
> Sent: woensdag 10 februari 2010 14:09
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Guardian: Thousands to lose jobs as UK
> universities prepare to cope with cuts
>
> I am glad if there is some discussion on these interrelated
> issues, and certainly stand to be corrected if I am wrong on
> my understanding of the situation.
>
> I am not clear on the numbers game whether more overseas
> students translates into more funding for more places
> overall, or if, either in policy or pragmatically, there is
> an overall limit, and it just reduces the places available to
> home (EU) students.
>
> I think the issue that you highlight is and has been a very
> real one for a long time, and the bottom line pressure is
> presumably as intense as ever in that regard.
>
> If there is an overall limit, I guess a shortage of places
> could, theoretically, raise the bar for overseas students.
> But that depends, as in the point I originally raised, how
> far institutions will switch towards foreign students and
> away from home students.
>
> LK
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: A forum for critical and radical geographers on behalf
> of Jung Won Sonn
> Sent: Wed 2/10/2010 11:11 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Guardian: Thousands to lose jobs as UK
> universities prepare to cope with cuts
>
>
>
> Dear Linda,
>
> I am with you in worrying about UK universities' emphasis on
> recruitment of non EU students. But I have a slightly
> different take on it.
>
> If we accept more non-EU students, the additional tuition fee
> will let us to accept more domestic students. In that sense,
> more international students means more higher education for
> domestic students in the long run, which is a good thing, I suppose.
>
> What I worry about is that, if we become too aggressive in
> accepting international students, we will be accepting
> students who are not capable of meeting the standard we set
> here. Then, they will fail in finishing the degree and go
> back to their country empty handed or have hard time
> preventing that situation. It is easy to blame unqualified
> students for their failure but before they try, they won't
> know the standard. We do. We are supposed to screen students
> before they come. And that screening will be more difficult
> if the university management sees non-EU students as money
> cows. That is already happening in some universities, some of
> us may want to argue.
>
> Regards,
> Jung Won
>
> =================================
>
> Jung Won SONN
> Ph.D. in Urban Planning
> Lecturer (Assistant Professor) in Urban Economic Development
> BSc. Programme Director
>
> Bartlett School of Planning
> UCL, University of London
> Phone: +44 (0)20 7679 4893
> Fax: +44 (0)87 1251 9402
>
> New MSc: Sustainable Urbanism:
> http://www.bartlett.ucl.ac.uk/planning/programmes/msc_dp/sust_u.htm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Linda Kaucher" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 10:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Guardian: Thousands to lose jobs as UK
> universities prepare to cope with cuts
>
>
> I have seen nothing in the media or in discussion that cross
> references Mandelson's HE funding cuts with the foreign
> student market on which universities have been so focussed
> for so long, which is often, in crude terms, at least in some
> universities, selling immigration.
>
> If, because of the fees difference, the net result is a
> bigger percentage of foreign students to home students (in
> fact EU students), then it would seem that the situation of
> shortage of university places is set to hit home students
> disproportionately hard.
>
> The fact that there is no dividing line between UK and EU
> students does not appear to help this situation, for actual
> UK students.
>
> And as academics come to realise that their jobs rely on the
> trade-in-services liberalised education market, which is now
> the recognised situation for Australian academics, they are
> likely to go along with this.
>
> But whither higher education for young people in the UK?
>
> LK
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: A forum for critical and radical geographers on behalf
> of Lawrence Berg
> Sent: Wed 2/10/2010 3:32 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Guardian: Thousands to lose jobs as UK
> universities prepare to cope with cuts
>
>
>
> Stuart,
> Thanks for your note and sorry to hear about the very
> difficult situation that Leeds colleagues find themselves in.
> I've gone to the LeedsUCU blog site and found all sorts of
> helpful information. One thing that wasn't readily clear to
> me, however, is who we might write to at the university to
> express our concerns. I know that letter writing can often
> be somewhat ineffective, but Leeds senior administrators are
> likely to be very keen to avoid bad international publicity
> in their bid to become one of the world's 'top 50'
> universities. Is there some way to publicize on the CGF list
> the appropriate people to send letters to (including UCU
> staff whom we can copy to), and some key 'talking points' for
> CGF members to put into their letters?
> Thanks,
> Lawrence
>
>
> On 10-02-09 2:41 PM, "Stuart Hodkinson"
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Dear Lawrence
> >
> > I'm afraid I have bad news - I am 100% convinced that the
> UK funding
> > cuts are going to cost thousands of jobs. My own university
> > (University of Leeds) is embarking on cuts of between 10% and 20%,
> > which could mean up to 700 jobs being shed. Management has just
> > announced a Voluntary Leavers Scheme, which no one is their
> right mind
> > would touch if it wasn't for the threat of compulsory redundancies
> > hanging over us.
> >
> > What is interesting, and very sad, is how the University is
> using the
> > 'crisis'
> > to restructure as part of the VC's ambition to be in the
> world top 50
> > universities, an ambition that frankly very few believe is possible
> > let alone desirable. Each department has been forced to
> come up with
> > their own 'plan' to cut 10% from the budget with the condition that
> > cuts must be 'strategic'.
> > What
> > this means, of course, is that department managers are
> compiling lists
> > of those academics deemed to be 'loss making' to the
> university (i.e.
> > they don't cover their salaries through teaching and
> research), with a
> > special emphasis on those who will struggle to be returned
> in the next
> > 'Research Assessment Exercise' (a major source of university income
> > based on 'quality' of research).
> >
> > Then there are those who are on fixed term contracts like
> myself, many
> > of whom are externally funded, who will in all probability simply
> > leave the university once our contracts are up because of budget
> > constraints. At the same time, we are told that if we happened to
> > strike lucky and bring in a research grant that covers 20% of our
> > salary, then the University will fund the rest and keep us on.
> >
> > So there are the headline job losses and the hidden job losses as
> > contracts end and are not renewed, but also an
> intensification of the
> > neoliberal agenda within the university, as academics are made
> > increasingly responsible for financing their own jobs and thus
> > becoming ever more entrepreneurial, competitive and individualistic.
> >
> > We are experiencing a classic case of the 'shock doctrine'. I
> > recommend CGF members read our local trade union 'blog' -
> > http://leedsucu.wordpress.com/ - to see how the cuts are
> playing out
> > on campus.
> >
> > Stuart
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: A forum for critical and radical geographers
> > [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Lawrence Berg
> > [[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: 09 February 2010 15:47
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Guardian: Thousands to lose jobs as UK universities
> > prepare to cope with cuts
> >
> > Thanks everyone for the responses to my post of the
> Guardian article.
> > I have to admit that I am a bit skeptical about 6% cuts leading to
> > 'thousands of job losses'. Whilst Canadian universities
> have not had
> > similar cuts in direct government funding, they did sustain
> very large
> > losses to endowment funds (upwards of 40%), plus many institutions
> > have received no increased funding to deal with increased
> costs from
> > inflation over the last few years, and we have not seen similar
> > reports of job losses here. My primary reason for posting the
> > Guardian article is to suggest that those on the CGF list
> might keep
> > tabs on issues and report any alarming developments (such as large
> > numbers of proposed redundancies on the part of specific
> > universities)
> > to the list. We might then use the collective power of CGF
> members to
> > contest any such developments.
> > Best wishes to all,
> > Lawrence
> >
> >
> > On 10-02-09 7:31 AM, "Tim Brown" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> While I agree that it is vitally important that reports of
> any kind
> >> in the media are as transparent as they can be with
> regards to their
> >> data, I have to object to the notion that this is simply
> the "routine
> >> management" of staff.
> >>
> >> For many of us, and I am one who has managed to remain within the
> >> academy for some time on such contracts, the current
> period that we
> >> are going into is far from "routine", as there has been a
> noticeable
> >> shrinkage in the posts that are available. So while
> 'tenured' staff
> >> may be secure, and I hope that they are, there are many
> 'non-tenured'
> >> staff who face a very different and extremely uncertain future.
> >>
> >> If stories such as those in the Guardian help to highlight this
> >> situation, and perhaps the fact that many Departments have
> relied on
> >> such staff to both maintain their research trajectories
> and also to
> >> teach growing numbers of undergraduates, then that is
> surely no bad
> >> thing.
> >>
> >> just a thought
> >>
> >> Tim
> >>
> >>
> >> David C Gibbs wrote:
> >>> Indeed Alan a similar email came from our head of HR
> the same day
> >>> see below.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Dear colleagues
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In response to the figure of 300 job losses quoted in todayıs
> >>> Guardian, the University can confirm that this relates almost
> >>> exclusively to the routine management of staff nearing the end of
> >>> fixed-term contracts over the period of 2009-11.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Previous experience has shown that, in many cases, staff in these
> >>> circumstances were awarded further contracts or
> redeployed to other
> >>> positions internally.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> For the sake of clarity, the University presently has no
> plans under
> >>> consideration which would lead to the loss of staff on continuing
> >>> contracts of employment.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> David Gibbs
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *Professor of Human Geography*
> >>>
> >>> Department of Geography
> >>>
> >>> University of Hull
> >>>
> >>> Hull
> >>>
> >>> HU6 7RX
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Email [log in to unmask]
> >>>
> >>> Tel. 01482 465330 (direct)
> >>>
> >>> Tel. 0784 0869355 (Mobile)
> >>>
> >>> Fax 01482 466340 (Geography)
> >>>
> >>> www.hull.ac.uk/geog/staff/Gibbs.htm
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *Director of the Graduate School*
> >>>
> >>> Tel. 01482 466844 (Graduate School)
> >>>
> >>> Fax 01482 466436 (Graduate School)
> >>>
> >>> www.hull.ac.uk/graduateschool
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *From:* A forum for critical and radical geographers
> >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Patterson,
> >>> Alan
> >>> *Sent:* 09 February 2010 13:20
> >>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> >>> *Subject:* Re: Guardian: Thousands to lose jobs as UK
> universities
> >>> prepare to cope with cuts
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I wonder how accurate the data referred to in the Guardian story
> >>> really is - hereıs our VCıs response:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Dear all
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Today's Guardian newspaper reported that 340 jobs are to
> be cut at
> >>> Sheffield Hallam University. The report is not true.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The report is in fact based on a national Trade Union report. We
> >>> have notified the Trade Unions, as we are required to by
> law, that
> >>> 340 Associate Lecturers no longer work for us, and have
> not worked
> >>> for us for at least 18 months. They are therefore being
> removed from
> >>> the Universityıs books as part of a routine annual exercise. This
> >>> doesnıt mean that they have not been replaced. It simply
> means that
> >>> they are no longer working for the University.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I should add that I was very angry to read this report. Reports
> >>> about financial meltdown in the University sector are
> creating lots
> >>> of uncertainty and anxiety. As Iıve said recently we are
> currently
> >>> in a fairly strong financial position. However, finances
> are getting
> >>> increasingly tough, and we are continuing to keep staff
> costs under
> >>> control. As a consequence we are not yet facing the financial
> >>> difficulties of other universities.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Professor Philip Jones
> >>>
> >>> Vice-Chancellor
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *From:* A forum for critical and radical geographers
> >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of
> *Lawrence Berg
> >>> *Sent:* 08 February 2010 23:27
> >>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> >>> *Subject:* Guardian: Thousands to lose jobs as UK universities
> >>> prepare to cope with cuts
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thousands to lose jobs as universities prepare to cope
> with cuts EUR
> >>> Post-graduates to replace professors EUR Staff poised to
> strike over
> >>> proposals of cuts Jessica Shepherd and Owen Bowcott
> >>> guardian.co.uk, Sunday 7 February 2010 21.33 GMT
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Universities across the country are preparing to axe thousands of
> >>> teaching jobs, close campuses and ditch courses to cope with
> >>> government funding cuts, the Guardian has learned.
> >>>
> >>> Other plans include using post-graduates rather than
> professors for
> >>> teaching and the delay of major building projects. The proposals
> >>> have already provoked ballots for industrial action at a
> number of
> >>> universities in the past week raising fears of strike
> action which
> >>> could severely disrupt lectures and examinations.
> >>>
> >>> The Guardian spoke to vice-chancellors and other senior
> staff at 25
> >>> universities, some of whom condemned the funding squeeze
> as "painful"
> >>> and "insidious". They warned that UK universities were
> being pushed
> >>> towards becoming US-style, quasi-privatised institutions.
> >>>
> >>> The cuts are being put in place to cope with the
> announcement last
> >>> week by the Higher Education Funding Council for England (Hefce)
> >>> that £449m equivalent to more than a 5% reduction nationally
> >>> would be stripped out of university budgets.
> >>>
> >>> The University and College Union (UCU) believes that more than
> >>> 15,000 posts the majority academic could disappear in
> the next few years.
> >>> Precise funding figures for each university will be
> released on 18
> >>> March.
> >>>
> >>> The chairman of the Russell Group of elite institutions,
> Professor
> >>> Michael Arthur, vice-chancellor of Leeds University, warned that
> >>> budgets would be further slashed by 6% in each of the next three
> >>> years. Last month he described the cuts as "devastating".
> >>>
> >>> The savings envisaged include:
> >>>
> >>> EUR More than 200 jobs losses at King's College, London,
> around 150
> >>> at the University of Westminster and, unions claim, as
> many as 700
> >>> at Leeds, 340 at Sheffield Hallam and 300 at Hull.
> >>>
> >>> EUR Entire campus closures at Cumbria and Wolverhampton
> >>> universities, where buildings will be mothballed and students
> >>> transferred to other sites.
> >>>
> >>> EUR Teesside University scrapping £2m worth of scholarships and
> >>> bursaries that would have helped poorer students. It will
> also share
> >>> services with a further education college in Darlington.
> >>>
> >>> EUR Postponing plans for a £25m creative arts building at
> Worcester
> >>> and £12m science block at Hertfordshire.
> >>>
> >>> EUR Under-subscribed arts and humanities courses are
> being dropped.
> >>> The University of the West of England has already stopped
> offering
> >>> French, German and Spanish; Surrey has dropped its BA in
> humanities.
> >>>
> >>> EUR Student/lecturer ratios are expected to rise, with more
> >>> institutions using postgraduates and short term staff
> filling in for
> >>> professors made redundant.
> >>>
> >>> Ballots for industrial action are due to be held or are
> pending at
> >>> the University of the Arts, Sussex University, the University of
> >>> Gloucestershire and King's College London. Lecturers at Leeds
> >>> where 750 posts are at risk voted by a large majority
> to strike this week.
> >>>
> >>> Higher exam pass marks will be required to win a place at
> >>> university, according to the survey of academic
> principals. The cap
> >>> on student numbers set at 2008 levels is restricting
> entry just
> >>> as youth unemployment is peaking and intensifying
> competitive pressure.
> >>>
> >>> Peter Mandelson, the business secretary who is in charge of
> >>> universities, accused the principals of "gross exaggerations" and
> >>> "extreme language", but would not be drawn over whether he would
> >>> make further cuts to higher education. Universities had to do "no
> >>> more than their fair share of belt-tightening," he said.
> >>>
> >>> "We know that universities have a vital contribution to
> our economic
> >>> growth, so we are not going to undermine them. We are asking for
> >>> savings of less than 5% and we expect universities to
> make these in
> >>> a way that minimises the impact on teaching and students. I am
> >>> confident they will."
> >>>
> >>> Mandelson also denied claims by vice-chancellors that he
> was letting
> >>> arts and humanities courses close and cared only about maths and
> >>> science degrees.
> >>>
> >>> On Monday it was announced that an extra £10m would go to the
> >>> teaching of science, technology, engineering and mathematics to
> >>> support universities "that are shifting the balance of their
> >>> provision towards these subjects".
> >>>
> >>> Mandelson said: "I am an arts graduate myself. We don't
> dictate to
> >>> universities which courses they put on. They tailor
> courses to meet
> >>> demand. We want universities to play to their strengths,
> but we also
> >>> want to keep this country civilised."
> >>>
> >>> The pattern of cutbacks is not uniform, with some universities
> >>> insisting they have been preparing for the downturn. Many have
> >>> already dropped more vulnerable subjects such as music
> and history,
> >>> increased fees for part-time students and expect to
> become even more
> >>> reliant on income from higher, overseas student fees.
> >>>
> >>> The vice-chancellor of Southampton, Professor Don
> Nutbeam, told the
> >>> Guardian: "This [decision by Hefce] is one of a series of
> insidious
> >>> cuts that have been made to higher education."
> >>>
> >>> Professor Geoffrey Petts, vice-chancellor of Westminster
> University,
> >>> said: "After a decade of huge successes in higher education we
> >>> suddenly have to rethink."
> >>>
> >>> Tomorrow the Universities and Colleges Admission Service
> (Ucas) is
> >>> due to announce record numbers of applications for places this
> >>> autumn. It is expected that as many as 300,000 applicants
> will be turned away.
> >>>
> >>> The surge in demand comes as a government-commissioned
> independent
> >>> review considers whether to raise tuition fees from
> £3,225 per year
> >>> to up to £7,000. Over three years total cuts will amount
> to at least £950m.
> >>>
> >>> The policy adopted by the government is in stark contrast to the
> >>> response in the US where President Obama this week proposed a 31%
> >>> increase in education spending for next year in order to combat
> >>> unemployment and develop skills.
> >>> *--
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> ----
> >>>
> >>>
> **************************************************************
> **************>>>
> *
> >>> ************
> >>> To view the terms under which this email is distributed,
> please go
> >>> to http://www.hull.ac.uk/legal/email_disclaimer.html
> >>>
> **************************************************************
> **************>>>
> *
> >>> ************
> >
> > --
> > Lawrence D. Berg, D.Phil.
> > Co-Director, The Centre for Social, Spatial & Economic Justice
> > Graduate Coordinator, Human Geography
> >
> > Community, Culture and Global Studies
> > University of British Columbia
> > 3333 University Way
> > Kelowna, BC, Canada, V1V 1V7
> > Voice: +1 250.807.9392, Fax: +1 250.807.8001
> > Email: [log in to unmask]
> > WEB: http://web.ubc.ca/okanagan/ccgs/faculty/berg.html
> >
> > Editor: ACME: An International E-Journal for Critical Geographies
> > http://www.acme-journal.org <http://www.acme-journal.org/>
> > <http://www.acme-journal.org/>
> >
> > Co-Leader: BC Disabilities Health Research Network
> http://www.dhrn.ca
> > <http://www.dhrn.ca/> <http://www.dhrn.ca/>
>
> --
> Lawrence D. Berg, D.Phil.
> Co-Director, The Centre for Social, Spatial & Economic
> Justice Graduate Coordinator, Human Geography
>
> Community, Culture and Global Studies
> University of British Columbia
> 3333 University Way
> Kelowna, BC, Canada, V1V 1V7
> Voice: +1 250.807.9392, Fax: +1 250.807.8001
> Email: [log in to unmask]
> WEB: http://web.ubc.ca/okanagan/ccgs/faculty/berg.html
>
> Editor: ACME: An International E-Journal for Critical
> Geographies http://www.acme-journal.org
> <http://www.acme-journal.org/> <http://www.acme-journal.org/>
>
> Co-Leader: BC Disabilities Health Research Network
> http://www.dhrn.ca <http://www.dhrn.ca/> <http://www.dhrn.ca/>
>
>
>
> Please access the attached hyperlink for an important
> electronic communications disclaimer:
> http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/planningAndCorporatePolicy/le
> galandComplianceTeam/legal/disclaimer.htm
>
>
>
> Please access the attached hyperlink for an important
> electronic communications disclaimer:
> http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/planningAndCorporatePolicy/le
> galandComplianceTeam/legal/disclaimer.htm
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