medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
And after that, you might try Kurt Bauch, Das mittelalterliche
Grabbild. And for England, there is also H.A. Tummers, Early Secular
Effigies in England: The 13th Century.
Cheers,
Jim
Jon Cannon wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture >> i've been meaning to read that, for several decades now.
>
> Me too!
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 12:30:11 -0500
> > From: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
> >
> > From: Dr Jim Bugslag <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > > Christopher,
> > > Your examples from Saint-Denis are all Renaissance transformations of
> > the late medieval transi tomb,
> >
> > well, as a confirmed middelvilist, i don't really believe in that
> > "Renaissance" nonsense, as such.
> >
> > >which usually featured the "social" body above and an increasingly
> macabre
> > image of the dead cadaver below.
> >
> > yes, and that "social" body is, if i recall rightly, more or less in
> his/her
> > prime (perhaps a rather aging 33 or so, difficult to tell).
> >
> > > These began to develop in the late 14th century, and at about the
> same
> > time, one also gets occasional "family" effigies, on which the kids are
> > definitely not depicted as 33-year-olds. An excellent study of this is
> > Erwin Panofsky's book, Tomb Sculpture.
> >
> > i've been meaning to read that, for several decades now.
> >
> > c
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Christopher Crockett wrote:
> > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion
> and culture
> > > >
> > > > From: Jon Cannon <[log in to unmask]>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> .. so are medieval effigies all of more-or-less 33-year olds?
> And other
> > > >>
> > > > images maybe, too (Generic saints?)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Later on, in the C15, this is emphatically not the case: the
> newfangled
> > idea
> > > >>
> > > > of the portrait puts paid to that.
> > > >
> > > > cf. the later royal tombs at St. Denis, which are quite starkly
> > "realistic"
> > > > [i.e., naturalistic]
> > > >
> > > > http://chrisagde.free.fr/val/h2arts.php3?page=5
> > > >
> > > > http://www.panoramio.com/photo/8185772
> > > >
> > > > or this example of the "funéraire macabre du XVIè: (« Transi » de
> > René de
> > > > Châlons de Bar le Duc, 1544)"
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> http://www.encyclopedie.bseditions.fr/image/article/vignette/FRARENSCURICH0001.jpg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> But what of the C13 and C14?
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > i've never thought of it before, but it seems like French
> effigies i've
> > seen
> > > > from the 12th-13th cc. are all "idealized" "portraits" of, yes, the
> > subject in
> > > > the Prime of his or her life.
> > > >
> > > > the macabre stuff from the end of the m.a. is just a kind of
> fluke, i
> > > > suppose.
> > > >
> > > > c
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2010 00:42:58 +0000
> > > >>> From: [log in to unmask]
> > > >>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > > >>> To: [log in to unmask]
> > > >>>
> > > >>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> > culture
> > > >>>
> > > >>> An example of this can be found in Aquinas' exposition of the
> > > >>> Apostles' Creed when he enumerates the qualities of resurrected
> > > >>> bodies:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> "Quarta conditio est quantum ad aetatem, quia omnes resurgent in
> > > >>> aetate perfecta, idest triginta trium vel duorum annorum.
> Cuius ratio
> > > >>> est, quia qui nondum pervenerunt ad hoc, non habent aetatem
> perfectam,
> > > >>> et senes hanc iam amiserunt: et ideo iuvenibus et pueris
> addetur quod
> > > >>> deest, senibus vero restituetur. Ephes. IV, 13: donec
> occurramus omnes
> > > >>> in (...) virum perfectum, in mensuram aetatis plenitudinis
> Christi."
> > > >>>
> > > >>> http://www.corpusthomisticum.org/csv.html
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> 2010/1/4 Ms B M Cook <[log in to unmask]>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> > > >>>>
> > > > culture
> > > >
> > > >>>> This may be a bit woolly and OT, but was it not / is it not /
> believed
> > > >>>>
> > > > in some quarters that at the Resurrection we shall ALL be 33
> years old,
> > no
> > > > matter what our biological age at death, because that is the age
> of Christ
> > at
> > > > his death & resurrection ?
> > > >
> > > >>>> (I certainly LIKE the idea! wherever it comes from.)
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> To put this into a medieval context, does not the author of the
> > mystical
> > > >>>>
> > > > poem "Pearl" encounter his dead daughter in a dream / vision
> and, although
> > she
> > > > had died as a young child, she is presented / presents herself /
> to him as
> > an
> > > > adult woman wearing a crown and tells him that all are kings and
> queens in
> > the
> > > > Kingdom of Heaven. ??
> > > >
> > > >>>> I may have a copy of "Pearl" (the girl's name was probably
> Margaret)
> > and
> > > >>>>
> > > > tomorrow I will try to look this one up if someone else hasn't
> beaten me
> > to it
> > > > ....
> > > >
> > > >>>> BMC
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >>>> From: Jon Cannon
> > > >>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> > > >>>> Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 10:31 PM
> > > >>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > > >>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> > > >>>>
> > > > culture I'm not sure if this is relevant to your endeavours (or
> even a
> > red
> > > > herring) but I've sometimes seen it suggested that medieval tomb
> effigies,
> > in
> > > > which the personage is invariably (apart of course from transi
> tombs) a
> > > > youngish and idealised 'type' of knight/king/whatever, are partly an
> > evocation
> > > > condition expected of their body at the General Resurrection.
> > > >
> > > >>>> I'd suggest a ref for this, but last time I did that my
> recollection
> > of
> > > >>>>
> > > > it was so wincingly volte-face to the reality that I barely dare
> to say
> > more
> > > > now....
> > > >
> > > >>>> J
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 11:56:14 -0600
> > > >>>>> From: [log in to unmask]
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > > >>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and
> > > >>>>>
> > > > culture
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Thanks Marjorie and Claire for your comments. I intend to
> devote some
> > > >>>>>
> > > > time this winter and spring to the theme of the resurrection in
> medieval
> > art,
> > > > so I will be back with some further insights as they come to me.
> It is
> > > > surprising that there is not a lot of research being done on
> this theme,
> > > > unless I am totally in the dark in terms of research that is
> going on
> > now.
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > >>>>> ________________________________________
> > > >>>>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religious
> > > >>>>>
> > > > culture [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Claire
> Renkin
> > > > [[log in to unmask]]
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 9:38 PM
> > > >>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and
> > > >>>>>
> > > > culture
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Dear Marjorie and Steve,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> From the evidence of your photo, Marjorie it looks like the
> fresco
> > > >>>>>
> > > > represents the iconographic theme known as the Man of Sorrows . The
> > > > representation of Christ is not historical, because as you noted he
> > appears
> > > > upright in the tomb. It is a devotional theme and suggests in
> the words
> > of
> > > > Henk van Os a "comprehensive image of Christ's suffering." Some
> images of
> > the
> > > > Man of Sorrows also hint at the Resurrection by including such
> details as
> > > > Christ gesturing to the wound in his side, or more directly showing
> > Christ
> > > > gazing to the viewer.
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Again based on the photo, the date of the fresco looks to me
> like
> > late
> > > >>>>>
> > > > 14thc.
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Claire Renkin
> > > >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >>>>> From: Marjorie Greene<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > > >>>>> To:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 12:53 PM
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and
> > > >>>>>
> > > > culture
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Thanks for the enlightenment, Steve. My first impression was
> > > >>>>>
> > > > "Resurrection," but I must have caught the habit of not trusting
> first
> > > > impressions from my students.
> > > >
> > > >>>>> I'm afraid I have no idea of the date of this work. Looking
> at it
> > > >>>>>
> > > > while Roman traffic whizzes by and with the sight of the Wedding
> Cake out
> > of
> > > > the corner of my eye is surreal. I've seen it for years but
> absolutely no
> > > > progress on the scavi is obvious. Same situation year after
> year. I'd like
> > to
> > > > jump into the excavation area... Eventually it will probably be
> superb to
> > > > visit.
> > > >
> > > >>>>> MG
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Marjorie Greene
> > > >>>>> http://medrelart.shutterfly.com/
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> --- On Thu, 12/31/09, McMichael, Steven J.
> <[log in to unmask]>
> > > >>>>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>>>> From: McMichael, Steven J. <[log in to unmask]>
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > > >>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> > > >>>>> Date: Thursday, December 31, 2009, 8:28 PM
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and
> > > >>>>>
> > > > culture
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Dear Majorie et al,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I just added the message to the site: Although Christ
> appears dead,
> > he
> > > >>>>>
> > > > is ascending from the tomb and the fact that the lamb carries
> the banner
> > of
> > > > victory, this has to be the resurrection.
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Do you know the date of this fresco?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Steve
> > > >>>>> ________________________________________
> > > >>>>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religious
> > > >>>>>
> > > > culture
> > > >
> >
> [[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>]
> > > > On Behalf Of Marjorie Greene
> > > >
> >
> [[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>]
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 12:19 AM
> > > >>>>> To:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >
> >
> [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and
> > > >>>>>
> > > > culture
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Steven et al,
> > > >>>>> I just added an album to the medrelart site: Ara Coeli in
> the left
> > > >>>>>
> > > > column top album and set as the album cover a picture of the
> Resurrection
> > that
> > > > is found in the scavi near Ara Coeli church and very close to the
> > Vittorio
> > > > Emanuele monument. The picture in question is the last in the
> album. The
> > other
> > > > photos are of the church, including a momument/tomb/something of
> Saint
> > > > Helena.
> > > >
> > > >>>>> MG
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Marjorie Greene
> > > >>>>> http://medrelart.shutterfly.com/
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> --- On Wed, 12/30/09, McMichael, Steven J.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >
> >
> <[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>>>> From: McMichael, Steven J.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >
> >
> <[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>>
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > > >>>>> To:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >
> >
> [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Date: Wednesday, December 30, 2009, 5:40 PM
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and
> > > >>>>>
> > > > culture
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Thank you, Jim, for the reference to this work of art. I am
> looking
> > at
> > > >>>>>
> > > > the portrayal of resurrection in many different places,
> especially in
> > medieval
> > > > theological tracts, sermons and art. I started my research with the
> > assumption
> > > > that medieval art was almost totally focused on the passion and
> death of
> > > > Jesus. I have seen so far that this is far from the truth.
> Certainly the
> > > > passion and death of Jesus is the central focus, but I have been
> surprised
> > at
> > > > how much medieval art does focus on the resurrection of Christ.
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Thanks again,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Steve
> > > >>>>> ________________________________________
> > > >>>>> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religious
> > > >>>>>
> > > > culture
> > > >
> >
> [[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]><[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>]
> > > > On Behalf Of Dr Jim Bugslag
> > > >
> >
> [[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]><[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>]
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 9:29 AM
> > > >>>>> To:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >
> >
> [log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]><[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]>
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [M-R] Resurrection Bodies?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and
> > > >>>>>
> > > > culture
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Dear Steve,
> > > >>>>> This is not quite what you asked for, but this reminded me of
> > > >>>>>
> > > > Matthias
> > > >
> > > >>>>> Grunewald's Isenheim Altarpiece which, when closed, shows a
> famously
> > > >>>>> gruesome dead Christ on the Cross, but when opened, a
> resurrected
> > > >>>>>
> > > > Christ
> > > >
> > > >>>>> that might, at least approximately, be considered to have the
> > > >>>>>
> > > > qualities
> > > >
> > > >>>>> you list.
> > > >>>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>>> Jim
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> McMichael, Steven J. wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and
> > > >>>>>>
> > > > culture
> > > >
> > > >>>>>> I am working on the death scene of Francis of Assisi in
> which his
> > > >>>>>>
> > > > dead body miraculously is transformed into the "resurrection
> body", i.e.,
> > it
> > > > takes on the four endowments: impassibility (impassibilitas),
> clarity
> > > > (claritas), agility (agilitas), and subtlety or elusiveness
> (subtilitas).
> > Are
> > > > there other saints in the middle ages in which the hagiographer
> makes such
> > a
> > > > claim about the body of the saint after his/her death?
> > > >
> > > >>>>>> Thanks in advance of any replies,
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Steve
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Steven J. McMichael, OFM Conv.
> > > >>>>>> Theology Department
> > > >>>>>> University of Saint Thomas
> > > >>>>>> Saint Paul, MN USA
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >
> **********************************************************************
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