Anne, despite my resistance to reducing Timias to an abstraction, I 
agree about pursuit of honor in bono and in malo, and don't forget the 
presumably good Prayse-Desire in the Castle of Alma. Also there are just 
too many personifications of false glory; what is the difference between 
Philotime and Lucifera for example? Lucifera has a good pedigree and 
Philotime has a disgrace in her past, she fell? LUcifera has 
consequently "made it" to the top whereas Philotime or her followers 
have not? And if so, so what?
Interesting thread.Marianne, I'll try to preserve and download it in its 
entirety and if I cant I'll email you off-list.

Marianne F Micros wrote:
> There was a discussion on this ListServe regarding Timias.  It is probably available on the website.  But I did save those messages in a file, since I found the discussion very interesting.  (I'm not sure I know how to send this but the person interested could ask me, if these are not available on the website.)
> Marianne Micros
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: anne prescott <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:37:18 -0500 (EST)
> Subject: Re: Soteriology in the FQ: Timias
> 
> I know, but with a memory like a sieve I can't recall where  
> (Kouwenhoven' book?), that somebody has read a lot of the FQ much more  
> than ordinarily in terms of a "glory," which is what the name Timeas  
> can recall as well as some version of "fear," that he reads as the  
> sort you get in Heaven with thrones and garlands, not the earthly kind  
> you get for killing large probably green reptiles or fending off water- 
> splashing nymphs. When I did a quick MLA search for Spenser and glory  
> ("Timeas" in one sense suggests that) and Spenser and Timeas I saw  
> that there is at least a little that looks promising and that was new  
> to me.
>      On the Palmer--I agree with those who don't see Book I as  
> religious and Book II as classical (too simple), but I've always  
> associated the Palmer with Reason as the faculty of the soul that  
> guides the others, which means not choosing between scientia or  
> sapientia, if only because a) he has a staff which isn't just phallic  
> but a disciplinary ruler that guides the young (see one set of  
> traditional images pictures in the Books of Hours for February), b)  
> Brigadore's hoofsteps are so rationally (and musically) temperate/ 
> tempered/tempo'd/moderate/modal, and c) those wonderful pictures in  
> Batman's Pylgrime that show Reason as a pilgrim with a staff leading a  
> young armed man on a horse. In the allegory this goes better with Book  
> I because the horse is named Will and misbehaves and bites on the  
> bridle, but the image of Reason with a staff leading a knight is sure  
> suggestive--as Koller said long ago.
>       But back to Timeas: I've never figured out how his name, if it  
> does connote  glory among other things, fits with Philotime. Is this  
> an instance of what Carol Kaske has so wisely shown about Spenser's  
> doing things in both malo and bono?
>       Time to go back to grading papers, including one by the kid who  
> cut most of the course and thinks the Psalter in the Geneva Bible was  
> translated by Thomas Wyatt--from the original Latin. Anne.
> 
> On Dec 18, 2009, at 11:20 PM, Donald Stump wrote:
> 
>> I like Jon's point about not divorcing this subject from Ralegh.  
>> Spenser was remarkable among epic writers in weaving contmporary  
>> figures into the action of his allegory, as if he saw the great  
>> drama of divine action upon the human sphere being played out, not  
>> only in the distant past, but also in the present.
>>
>> His allegory of the Apocalypse in Books I and V suggests that he saw  
>> the "English moment" that had arrived in his own day as one of the  
>> major turning points in salvation history, making Elizabeth and  
>> Ralegh and the rest of the members of the English court players on a  
>> very grand stage indeed.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:34 PM, <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Dear Stuart, & other colleagues,
>>
>> With our approach to Christmas, "in solstitio brumali, 'the very  
>> dead of winter'" (as Spenser's colleague Lancelot Andrewes put it),  
>> it's a good time to consider soteriology in the FQ.
>>
>> I don't doubt that Spenser's interest in salvation extends beyond  
>> the first book, and for him, the plain pathway to salvation must be  
>> through faith in God -- specifically, the God of Christianity.  Just  
>> how Christian and "Christianised" doctrines and concepts are related  
>> in FQ to characters and images that hark back to non-Christian texts  
>> and traditions -- isn't that a matter that clearly fascinated  
>> Spenser? Does he ever settle the matter, making it easy for us to  
>> put Christian and non-Christian things in separate boxes?  I think  
>> he wondered, more than he worried, about affiliations and  
>> distinctions in the various traditions to which he appeals.
>>
>> There is much to be gained from focusing first on the Palmer, then  
>> on Timias.  Does the distinction between scientia and sapientia come  
>> into the discussion of the Palmer?  He sounds more like an  
>> embodiment of scientia, but his identity as a pilgrim who has  
>> already been to Jerusalem argues for the perfecting of science with  
>> wisdom.
>>
>> Why has there been little examination of Timias "in his own right"?   
>> Is this only because he is a minor character?  I don't think so.   
>> His separation from Arthur bears interpretation; he has a place in  
>> the narrative "in his own right" (or wrong, as the case may be).   
>> But I question the value of determining the significance of a  
>> character -- major or minor -- outside of relationships, independent  
>> of the dynamics of specific episodes.  In Timias's relationship(s)  
>> with Belphoebe, the state of his soul is clearly at stake, not least  
>> in his own acute introspection, verging upon despair.
>>
>> Spenser's allusions to Ralegh's honor and Ralegh's fortunes at court  
>> won't be central to this inquiry, but I think they shouldn't be set  
>> too far off to the side.  Ralegh's own writings have much to say  
>> about honor, and about the nature and destiny of the immortal soul.
>>
>> Jon Quitslund
>> -------------- Original message from Stuart Hart  
>> <[log in to unmask]>: --------------
>>
>>
>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>> I am currently a doctoral researcher at the University of  
>> Birmingham, writing
>>> about soteriology in the FQ. My research aims to highlight how  
>> Spenser's
>>> interest in the doctrine of salvation extends beyond the first  
>> book. In my first
>>> chapter, I examinaed the role of the Palmer, whom I argued was the
>>> embodiment of sapientia, one of the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit  
>> of Isa. 11:
>>> 2-3. I proposed that his guidance of Guyon towards temperance, may  
>> be read
>>> as the praxis of God's imputed grace working within the elect to  
>> steer him
>>> away from carnal depravity. To this end, I tried to show how early- 
>> modern
>>> readers might adopt such strategies to reconcile the previously  
>> polarised
>>> orders of nature and grace.
>>>
>>> In my second chapter, I am again focusing on a seemingly minor  
>> character, Timias. I believe that Timias' significance is greater  
>> than his part in
>>> allegorising the perilious fortunes of Renaissance courtiers, and  
>> Raleigh in particular. I
>>> will
>>> argue that his trials and tribulations are indeed those of the  
>> Christianised
>>> soul
>>> seeking to find honour. To this end, I am reading him as the  
>> embodiment of
>>> Christianised honour. In proposing this argument, I will draw  
>> greatly upon
>>> Robert Ashley's 'Of Honour', which although written circa. 1596,  
>> is germain to
>>> thought of the time.
>>>
>>> In researching the figure of Timias, I have found very few  
>> critical sources
>>> which examine him in his own right; he is always defined by his  
>> relationship to
>>> others, or the ways in which he illuminates the qualities of the  
>> more major
>>> characters. Moreover, there doesn't appear to be a great deal of  
>> research
>>> which examines him as the personification of Christianised honour.  
>> To this end,
>>> I wondered whether there are any colleagues who could possibly  
>> point me in
>>> the right direction of some little known, or more widely known  
>> sources, that I
>>> have foolishly overlooked.
>>>
>>> Kind regards to you all at this festive time,
>>>
>>> Stuart Hart
>>> University of Birmingham
>>> England.
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Donald Stump
>> Professor of English
>> English Undergraduate Director and
>> Director of the Micah Program
>> 229 Humanities
>> Saint Louis University
>> St. Louis, MO 63103
>> (314) 977-3009