Hi Mogg,
2009/12/2 mandrake <[log in to unmask]>:
> Jake Stratton-Kent wrote:
>
> Hi Jake
>
> I agree with you really - but playing devil's advocate - perhaps magical
> covers it -
> AFAIK Gershom Sholem's books tended to downplay the sorcerous aspects of QBL
yup, and he hadn't much time for Levi or Crowley either ;)
> and recent commentators have criticised him for going too far -
> so there's some sort of distinction between
> the magical approach and the meditation/philosophical interpretation??
perhaps, though as you say, Kaplan put a lot of good material out
(seem to recall Scholem didn't have much time for him).
> Not sure how you define shamanism
presence of the Orpheus motif would certainly help, though if we found
a suitably necromantic element in 'sorcerous' Kabbalah, it would have
to be shown it originated in Jewish material.
Talking of Orpheus, the magical 'Books of Moses' (in the Hellenistic
period) appear to originate in an identification of Moses and Musaeus,
an 'author' of Orphic texts. As Orphism is strongly involved in 'Greek
shamanism' and having Near Eastern influences, there may have been
some Jewish 'Greek shamans'. Until this is shown, resemblances to
shamanism may be superficial.
If you'll forgive me playing devil's advocaat with myself, Kaplan
presents clear accounts of 'Stoic' behaviour and asceticism as well as
ecstatic states. These may be the strongest indicator so far of
Kabbalistic shamanism, more below.
> - but I wondered if the myth of
> dismemberment and reassemblage that you find in
> core shamanic traditions may also play a part in QBL -
> isn't there some sort of symbolic body -
> primary Adam that QBL seeks to rebuild or perfect?
sounds tenuous, does building it imply it was ever dismembered? What
role do spirits play in this initiatory adventure?
> Vision Questing also seems to be important in early Kabbalistic descriptions
> and this is also distinctive of shamanism.
>
> Not sure if these are definitive or its all down to literate/
> non literate trads as some already suggested.
>
> As to use potions and drugs - there are some who point to
> such a tradition in early judaism/gnostic milieu -
> isn't there something about Fly Agaric??
Allegro may have had a point, though if so is it linked to Kabbalah
(essentially medieval)?
the drugs=shamanism' thing is superficial in many ways; can we have
massive feats of memorising oral tradition before hitting the bong and
bongos? ;)
It is interesting that Orphism included an almost tantric approach to
dietary restrictions (ie vegetarianism relaxed - to say the least - at
initiation rites).
Of course tantra is as abused a word as shamanism, shamans - Greek or
otherwise - aren't particularly known for hedonism. There are strong
ascetic - even puritanical - elements in 'Greek' shamanism (involving
Scythian and Thracian influences, so 'Greek' requires qualifiers). So
those 'Stoic' tendencies Kaplan cited in Kabbalah could be a stronger
indicator than a biblical fungi.
> Just asking really
good to be chatting here at last.
> ps good luck with your gig in Glastonbury
cheers! ;)
ALWays
Jake
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